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I am not an astrophysicist but I have a hunch any speculations of galactic colonization fails to entertain just how big space actually is. I feel like there is

I am not an astrophysicist but I have a hunch any speculations of galactic colonization fails to entertain just how big space actually is. I feel like there is ample reason to suspect the probability of galactic (or even interstellar) colonization is exactly 0, and no civilization in the history of the entire universe will ever colonize an entire galaxy (and probably not even more than a handful of solar systems outside their home world; if any).

pfdietz 1y ago
Your argument shows a lack of understanding of exponential growth. Any given colony has to create only slightly more than 1 additional colony in order to drive exponential growth. There doesn't have to be any coordinated action by a central authority for it to happen. For it not to happen (if it is physically feasible), in contrast, every species has to refrain from doing it at all points in their history, almost without exception. And those that do the colonization will seed additional colonies with a mindset that led to colonization; such mindsets will be selected for for further expansion.
- runarberg 1y ago
  Permanent exponential growth is very rare in nature, and even rarer in biological systems. What we observe as exponential growth is usually only a partial observation of a logistical curve or is missing a system collapse at the end of the curve. We have no reason to believe alien (or even human) civilization will continue to grow and expand forever. Heck even the human population curve has started to slow down and is now revealing it self to be a logistical curve. But regardless of this, space is very very very big. And there are a lot of extremely hostile worlds out there. Any civilization will experience biological limitation to which worlds they can (and will want to) colonize. Likewise they will experience both economical and physical limitations to how far they will send their machines. Lets say an alien species is lucky and has a habitable world inside their solar system which they will colonize. I think this is likely. They also spot another world in a nearby solar system which takes them 200 years to travel to, eager colonists travel in a generational ship, and 600 years later the colony is thriving. Now they run out of nearby habitable worlds. There is a world of questionable quality 500 years away and they are unable to persuade enough people to fill a generational ship. Also they learned the stories of the passengers in the generational ship, their lives kind of sucked, we have it much better on this world. So it is better to just stay here. This might happen after 1 or 100 successful colonizations, but I think space is so freaking large, it will happen to all civilizations. At some point they will run out of worlds to colonize, and they will never expand far outside of some local area near their home world.
  - pfdietz 1y ago
    It's rare in biological systems because it's terminated by running out of some resource. But you're saying galactic colonization would terminate without running out of new systems to colonize. There would be a slowdown due to geometric constraints -- only so many new systems adjacent the boundary of the colonized zone -- but that hardly solves your problem.
    - runarberg 1y ago
      My speculation is that the size of space is an obvious geometric constraint which will limit the span of any civilizations almost immediately. If we look at humans, we have both the space, technology, and the resources to expand even further on earth, yet our span only marginally larger then it was 10 000 years ago. We can have permanent settlements on Antarctica, floating on the ocean, etc. but we don’t. We can increase our population by another order of magnitude, but again, it looks like we won’t. This follows the same population dynamics as most other species on earth. I think aliens will be no different.
  - hdgvhicv 1y ago
    Unless some means of communicating faster than light is found a galactic colonisations is not a civilisation, its multiple ones. A colony ship heading in one direction at 0.1c will never interact with one heading the other way at the same speed. After 10,000 years the civilisations will be very different, after 100,000 years they will barely be the same species. Even if 99% stop and fail, the 1% will continue and continue expanding. The only way to stop would be to run out of planets, which would mean every habitable planet and star system has been populated. There wouldn’t be a biological urge to stop, as the successful colonies are ones which have the urge to expand. An environmental need wouldn’t affect every colony and ship short of a galaxy spanning event of some sort which we can’t even conceive.
    - runarberg 1y ago
      Yes, I think that will never happen. My prediction is that generational ships are super rare in the universe, and may only happen ones or twice in the entire history of a civilization, and for a tiny portion of civilizations. Meaning by far majority of all civilization will have zero generational ships. Maybe a single civilization somewhere in a distant galaxy will have hundreds, but nowhere near enough to cover an entire galaxy, not even if we count decedent civilizations. I also think fast space travel (like 0.1c) is rare among civilizations, and may only happen in the order of hundreds of time in the history of some civilizations. And most of these fast space travel will scientific instruments for curiosity and exploration, not for colonization. And that a technologically advanced civilization would favor doing their explorations with telescopes, not probes. So probes would only be sent long distance for rare occasions. This would mean that almost no civilizations will be expand beyond their solar system, and those that do, will only do it a handful of times, and the expansion will finally stop.

pfdietz 1y ago

Your argument shows a lack of understanding of exponential growth. Any given colony has to create only slightly more than 1 additional colony in order to drive exponential growth. There doesn't have to be any coordinated action by a central authority for it to happen. For it not to happen (if it is physically feasible), in contrast, every species has to refrain from doing it at all points in their history, almost without exception. And those that do the colonization will seed additional colonies with a mindset that led to colonization; such mindsets will be selected for for further expansion.

runarberg 1y ago
Permanent exponential growth is very rare in nature, and even rarer in biological systems. What we observe as exponential growth is usually only a partial observation of a logistical curve or is missing a system collapse at the end of the curve. We have no reason to believe alien (or even human) civilization will continue to grow and expand forever. Heck even the human population curve has started to slow down and is now revealing it self to be a logistical curve. But regardless of this, space is very very very big. And there are a lot of extremely hostile worlds out there. Any civilization will experience biological limitation to which worlds they can (and will want to) colonize. Likewise they will experience both economical and physical limitations to how far they will send their machines. Lets say an alien species is lucky and has a habitable world inside their solar system which they will colonize. I think this is likely. They also spot another world in a nearby solar system which takes them 200 years to travel to, eager colonists travel in a generational ship, and 600 years later the colony is thriving. Now they run out of nearby habitable worlds. There is a world of questionable quality 500 years away and they are unable to persuade enough people to fill a generational ship. Also they learned the stories of the passengers in the generational ship, their lives kind of sucked, we have it much better on this world. So it is better to just stay here. This might happen after 1 or 100 successful colonizations, but I think space is so freaking large, it will happen to all civilizations. At some point they will run out of worlds to colonize, and they will never expand far outside of some local area near their home world.
- pfdietz 1y ago
  It's rare in biological systems because it's terminated by running out of some resource. But you're saying galactic colonization would terminate without running out of new systems to colonize. There would be a slowdown due to geometric constraints -- only so many new systems adjacent the boundary of the colonized zone -- but that hardly solves your problem.
  - runarberg 1y ago
    My speculation is that the size of space is an obvious geometric constraint which will limit the span of any civilizations almost immediately. If we look at humans, we have both the space, technology, and the resources to expand even further on earth, yet our span only marginally larger then it was 10 000 years ago. We can have permanent settlements on Antarctica, floating on the ocean, etc. but we don’t. We can increase our population by another order of magnitude, but again, it looks like we won’t. This follows the same population dynamics as most other species on earth. I think aliens will be no different.
- hdgvhicv 1y ago
  Unless some means of communicating faster than light is found a galactic colonisations is not a civilisation, its multiple ones. A colony ship heading in one direction at 0.1c will never interact with one heading the other way at the same speed. After 10,000 years the civilisations will be very different, after 100,000 years they will barely be the same species. Even if 99% stop and fail, the 1% will continue and continue expanding. The only way to stop would be to run out of planets, which would mean every habitable planet and star system has been populated. There wouldn’t be a biological urge to stop, as the successful colonies are ones which have the urge to expand. An environmental need wouldn’t affect every colony and ship short of a galaxy spanning event of some sort which we can’t even conceive.
  - runarberg 1y ago
    Yes, I think that will never happen. My prediction is that generational ships are super rare in the universe, and may only happen ones or twice in the entire history of a civilization, and for a tiny portion of civilizations. Meaning by far majority of all civilization will have zero generational ships. Maybe a single civilization somewhere in a distant galaxy will have hundreds, but nowhere near enough to cover an entire galaxy, not even if we count decedent civilizations. I also think fast space travel (like 0.1c) is rare among civilizations, and may only happen in the order of hundreds of time in the history of some civilizations. And most of these fast space travel will scientific instruments for curiosity and exploration, not for colonization. And that a technologically advanced civilization would favor doing their explorations with telescopes, not probes. So probes would only be sent long distance for rare occasions. This would mean that almost no civilizations will be expand beyond their solar system, and those that do, will only do it a handful of times, and the expansion will finally stop.