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X-ray scans reveal the hidden risks of cheap batteries
- xnx 1y ago14 days ago | 120 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45364932 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45364932
- alberth 1y agoLots of dupes lately. I've personally commented on lots of dupes lately. Makes me wonder if HN dupe detector is broken/changed recently.
- T3OU-736 1y ago(Not disagreeing that this is a dupe), but this is The Verge's coverage of Lumafield's findings. Not sure if there is any additional value in the re-coverage, though it does feel like the message is important enough to be spread, and I suspect there is more readers of The Verge than the original source.
- ortusdux 1y agoI've been seeing this link as a promoted post on Reddit.
- joecool1029 1y agoTo Lumafield or TheVerge's reporting of it?
- ortusdux 1y agoLumafield's blog post
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- diob 1y agoI actually had a battery for a drill meltdown on me earlier this year. If I hadn't been home (and it hadn't been on my stone counter when it happened), I probably wouldn't have a home.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 1y agoAs a new homeowner that's one of my fears. I'm surprised there aren't more fires with how many lithium batteries are kicking around.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- kaffekaka 1y agoThen you are obviously overestimating how dangerous they are, are you not?
- dylan604 1y agoThat's not necessarily a bad thing though. There's few things in life where an over abundance of caution becomes the worse outcome.
- AngryData 1y agoThis is why I keep lithium batteries in a steel box when they aren't being used. I think you can but purpose built ones, but I use steel ammo boxes from military surplus stores. Its a bit of a pain, and won't stop the toxic clouds of smoke from filling my house, but it could very well prevent my house from being burnt down. Some day I might make a dedicated battery box corner with a vent to outdoors though because batteries only seem to be getting bigger and more powerful.
- FeepingCreature 1y agoWas it in the charger?
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- whycome 1y agoIt's kinda crazy that we don't yet have an approval process for "flight safe" batteries.
- oulipo2 1y agoOur company is building batteries that are easy to repair, and therefore you can remove and put back the cells easily. This allows you to fly with them :) https://infinite-battery.com https://infinite-battery.com
- criddell 1y agoAren't carry ons limited to 100 Wh total for batteries. For more you need airline approval, no?
- mjmas 1y agoThat 100Wh is per-battery. Qantas here in Australia allows 20 batteries of up to 100Wh in carrion luggage.
- oulipo2 1y agoIndeed, but here since you disassemble it, it's no longer a "battery", just cells, which are not regulated the same since when they are disconnected they are mostly passive
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- tristor 1y agoReading the original report in the dupe from 14 days ago, it seems pretty clear that the conclusion is that counterfeit/low-cost lithium batteries are a safety hazard, and we should probably have stricter import regulations for batteries to shutdown the counterfeit/gray-market operations, as they are a serious fire hazard.
- metalman 1y agoThere will always be a realy fucking bad failure mode attached to any energy dense storage medium. This is basic physics. The diffrence between a roaring fire in the wood stove, your car engine, an ultra high tech rocket motor and a bomb, is only the speed of the "flame front" A battery has the same issues, in that the higher the energy density and the greater the expected rate of energy transfer, the greater the chance of finding a way to detonate all the energy at once, which is actualy possible ,with a wood stove, if things go exactly wrong.Exceptionaly large explosions have happened with nothing more than dust, or flour. 4 things, you can pick 3. fast, powerfull, cheap, safe.
- justlikereddit 1y agoA Lithium iron phosphate battery is significantly more stable and less likely to go thermal runaway in a fireshow-like fashion. The battery chemistry is important for this.
- jandrese 1y agoYes, but this article is mostly talking about TEMU or Amazon fly-by-night brand batteries, so you have to take their word that they are using Lipo4 cells and not just blatantly lying like they do for every other aspect of the product.
- joecool1029 1y agoThere are lithium ion chemistries that are less likely to thermal runaway, LMO (Lithium Manganese Oxide) is used in power tools and they don't seem to go up. Tradeoff is lower capacity.
- oulipo2 1y agoThe main risk factor is cells, you have to source them from reputable manufacturers. After having monitored a few battery fires, we went on to design a casing with multiple features to contain fires, you can check it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0NXXfCA2CY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0NXXfCA2CY If you're interested, you can order them here https://infinite-battery.com https://infinite-battery.com
- gertlex 1y agoHow much is this mitigated by well-behaved charging circuitry? I.e. my understanding is most devices are not like the 3s lipos I put in my hobby robots, but instead have integrated charging circuitry that you just give an appropriate voltage to... and that proper charging behavior avoids a lot of the dangerous scenarios with lipos? I ask because, loosely, the # of battery fires seems like a function in part of: (1) use of good charging logic; (2) cell manufacturing quality; (3) # of cells in the wild. While the growth of 3 probably dominates the improvements to 1 and 2, I'm guessing the number of battery fires has grown but not "exponentially".
- joecool1029 1y ago> I.e. my understanding is most devices are not like the 3s lipos I put in my hobby robots, but instead have integrated charging circuitry that you just give an appropriate voltage to... and that proper charging behavior avoids a lot of the dangerous scenarios with lipos? I'm not sure your understanding is correct. There are assembled packs with a BMS on them, laptop batteries this is usually the case. The cells themselves can be lipol, prismatic, or cylindrical (like 18650's). The cells almost never have active BMS built-in. It's always external (either on a board on the pack or on the device itself charging it). I really think the battery fires are mainly qc issues and running bad qc cells beyond limits (either fast charging or discharging). If capacity is staggered a ton between cells then even charge balancing the cells isn't going to do much good. Pouch cell fires probably more related to physical damage due to expansion in places they aren't designed well to expand (so it pushes the jellyroll down and causes a short/thermal runaway).
- cko 1y agoI once watched a video of a man holding what looked to be a bicycle battery walking into an elevator. After the doors closed, it seemed to have exploded and burst into flame in his hands, and the aftermath was charred remains. After seeing this I refuse to sleep near my 20,000 mAh power bank. I saw this Jackery power station for sale for an ultra discounted price and noticed it was not lithium iron phosphate and I noped so fast.
- starwatch 1y agoThe poor regulation around this is pretty bad for startups. Personally I've taken to only buying rechargeable battery powered devices from big brands. Anything else and I look for a power cord, single-use batteries, or mechanical operation. It's not an ideal solution and not just because of examples like the Samsung Galaxy Note7. It's because I love rooting for the startups, the disruptors, the innovators. But in the world of battery powered products I'm inclined to think (or hope!) that the bigger players have more to lose by cheaping out on cheap batteries.
- jbstack 1y agoI have the same policy. It's not worth risking your life just to save a bit of money or try some gadget that is only made by a no-name brand. Often you keep these devices very close to your body or head (e.g. earphones) where they can do a lot of damage if they suddenly explode. I learned this lesson over 10 years ago when I was visiting a night market in China with someone. He was so delighted with how cheap the portable chargers were that he bought a bunch to give to his friends/family back home. When we returned to the hotel one of them started emitting smoke. From that day I've only ever bought reputable brands, and even then I worry about it.
- Sophira 1y agoDoes Ars Technica regularly publish things like this? It's the first time I've seen a non-tech-related article from them. (I'm not complaining, mind you - I did find it very interesting to read. It just doesn't strike me as typical AT content, or at least not the kind that people typically share for it. Thank you to OP for doing so!)
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]