6 ms·

Importantly not just counterfeit chips but also completely legal clone chips. For context, for a long time Windows did not have a driver for the CDC serial comm

Importantly not just counterfeit chips but also completely legal clone chips. For context, for a long time Windows did not have a driver for the CDC serial communication class out of the box. But FTDI had made good Windows drivers, and their interface was easy to clone. So for a time there was a market for making 3rd-party chips implementing FTDI's interface and copying their USB id to be recognized by their driver[0]. Of course some unscrupulous sellers would inevitably try to pass those of as genuine FTDI chips. FTDI was probably not happy with either of them, with the clone chips manufacturer piggybacking of their hard work. But they could only do anything about the counterfeits, so they kinda ignored the existence of legal clones and in all their public communication only talked about taking steps to shut down counterfeit chips (most likely well knowing that their were also destroying chips of legitimate competitors). [0] Clearly allowed at least in the US under the decision in Sega v. Accolade

Joel_Mckay 1y ago
Many Chip VID:PID listed in > lsusb or C:\> Get-PnpDevice -PresentOnly | Where-Object { $_.InstanceId -match '^USB' } | Format-List are considered copyrighted IP in North America. Many of the paid device codes are often not like other Communication Device Class drivers or free generic HID devices listed in the USB standard. Early next year Windows 11 will be locking out unsigned drivers from the OS. Good for keeping the kernel more consistent, but could be bad for hobby hardware drivers. Personally, I think it is ludicrous, but for 83% of users they have no other option than pay $6.32 for a $$0.43 chip. =3
- matt-p 1y ago
  The copycats are free to write thier own drivers though? They could even open source them. Why should they get to steal them from FDTI? I do agree the cost of the chips are insane however, they're ultimately worth paying for because of the driver support and 'just works' factor.
  - Joel_Mckay 1y ago
    > copycats are free to write thier own drivers though? Sure, anyone paying for a Microsoft certified hardware driver, USB PID allocation, and cert fees every year... Everyone else is not allowed in the OS we paid for... It is a decades old serial port emulation chip... Racketeering with a computer should still be illegal. =3
  - taneq 1y ago
    They're not stealing anything.
- poizan42 1y ago
  > are considered copyrighted IP in North America. Yes they may be, but in the Sega v. Accolade case I mentioned earlier it was decided that copying of both copyrighted and trademarked material for interoperability purposes is fair use. In that case Accolade had to literally embed "SEGA" inside their ROM and send the text to the Genesis III in order for it to boot their games. The Ninth Circuit court ruled that this constituted fair use.
- CamperBob2 1y ago
  Early next year Windows 11 will be locking out unsigned drivers from the OS. That's been the case since Windows 7 for 64-bit drivers, hasn't it? What's changing with 11?
  - Joel_Mckay 1y ago
    Hardware drivers not certified by the Microsoft lab will not install. No longer can folks dismiss the nag screen to run some bespoke piece of hardware. This is apparently being done to improve kernel security and reliability. It could be a PR disaster depending how it is rolled out... People can blame things like the old generic PC-case-bling LED driver CVE people and even its original author lost patience with years ago... lol =3
    - CamperBob2 1y ago
      Hardware drivers not certified by the Microsoft lab will not install. No longer can folks dismiss the nag screen to run some bespoke piece of hardware. Again, that's been the case since Windows 7. You have to go out of your way to boot the system in "Test Mode" to install an unsigned driver. Either that, or use Zadig to self-sign the driver. (Maybe they're no longer allowing that?) Signatures were enforced only for 64-bit drivers in Windows 7, but Windows 10 enforces them for all drivers.
      - Joel_Mckay 1y ago
        The policy is covered fairly well: https://windowsforum.com/threads/windows-driver-signing-balancing-kernel-security-and-user-control-in-windows-11.379418/ https://windowsforum.com/threads/windows-driver-signing-bala... We won't know the actual collateral damage till the update is released. =)
        poizan42 1y ago
        There is nothing in that article saying anything about any upcoming requirements. Also it is written by a ChatGPT bot account, so it would be an invalid source even if it did. The only update even mentioned in that article is "Windows 10, version 1607 (the Anniversary Update released in August 2016)". In case you haven't noticed, that happened 9 years ago...
- taneq 1y ago
  I can kinda see where the idea of "copyrighting a number" makes sense when you're talking about a number that's multiple kilobytes in size, but trying to stake a legal claim to one of the 65536 possible 16-bit numbers is just wrong imo.
  - Joel_Mckay 1y ago
    Indeed, the USB standards body prevented allocated company VID reuse, and thus greatly simplified identifying the correct hardware. There is also additional generic information like company name (often Trademarked) or serial number that may be queried from many devices as well. If it were free or cheap, than people would have just started another domain squatting business. That could have been far worse. =3
hxorr 1y ago
The issue was, if I recall correctly, that the Microsoft CDC driver was quite buggy. This led to the situation where CDC device vendors were unwilling to produce CDC compatible devices, because the default Microsoft driver would be used and, of course, the blame for any bugginess gets pinned on the hardware vendor. Hence the current situation of many CDC-type devices that are intentionally incompatible enough with the standard, in order to require the device vendor's own drivers which they can ensure meet their quality expectations
- Joel_Mckay 1y ago
  In general, the Microchip CDC driver was free to use. "The CDC class has been implemented in Windows (since Windows 98), macOS and most Linux distributions. Since Windows 10, no extra information has to be given in the start-up sequence as the operating system now has a generic driver that will be used for CDC. To support older versions of Windows (Windows 7 and earlier), provide an .inf file that associates with the correct driver." However, these will not support the high-speed bit-banged JTAG mode FTDI chips can perform with the right driver. =3

Joel_Mckay 1y ago

Many Chip VID:PID listed in > lsusb or C:\> Get-PnpDevice -PresentOnly | Where-Object { $_.InstanceId -match '^USB' } | Format-List are considered copyrighted IP in North America. Many of the paid device codes are often not like other Communication Device Class drivers or free generic HID devices listed in the USB standard. Early next year Windows 11 will be locking out unsigned drivers from the OS. Good for keeping the kernel more consistent, but could be bad for hobby hardware drivers. Personally, I think it is ludicrous, but for 83% of users they have no other option than pay $6.32 for a $$0.43 chip. =3

matt-p 1y ago
The copycats are free to write thier own drivers though? They could even open source them. Why should they get to steal them from FDTI? I do agree the cost of the chips are insane however, they're ultimately worth paying for because of the driver support and 'just works' factor.
- Joel_Mckay 1y ago
  > copycats are free to write thier own drivers though? Sure, anyone paying for a Microsoft certified hardware driver, USB PID allocation, and cert fees every year... Everyone else is not allowed in the OS we paid for... It is a decades old serial port emulation chip... Racketeering with a computer should still be illegal. =3
- taneq 1y ago
  They're not stealing anything.
poizan42 1y ago
> are considered copyrighted IP in North America. Yes they may be, but in the Sega v. Accolade case I mentioned earlier it was decided that copying of both copyrighted and trademarked material for interoperability purposes is fair use. In that case Accolade had to literally embed "SEGA" inside their ROM and send the text to the Genesis III in order for it to boot their games. The Ninth Circuit court ruled that this constituted fair use.
CamperBob2 1y ago
Early next year Windows 11 will be locking out unsigned drivers from the OS. That's been the case since Windows 7 for 64-bit drivers, hasn't it? What's changing with 11?
- Joel_Mckay 1y ago
  Hardware drivers not certified by the Microsoft lab will not install. No longer can folks dismiss the nag screen to run some bespoke piece of hardware. This is apparently being done to improve kernel security and reliability. It could be a PR disaster depending how it is rolled out... People can blame things like the old generic PC-case-bling LED driver CVE people and even its original author lost patience with years ago... lol =3
  - CamperBob2 1y ago
    Hardware drivers not certified by the Microsoft lab will not install. No longer can folks dismiss the nag screen to run some bespoke piece of hardware. Again, that's been the case since Windows 7. You have to go out of your way to boot the system in "Test Mode" to install an unsigned driver. Either that, or use Zadig to self-sign the driver. (Maybe they're no longer allowing that?) Signatures were enforced only for 64-bit drivers in Windows 7, but Windows 10 enforces them for all drivers.
    - Joel_Mckay 1y ago
      The policy is covered fairly well: https://windowsforum.com/threads/windows-driver-signing-balancing-kernel-security-and-user-control-in-windows-11.379418/ https://windowsforum.com/threads/windows-driver-signing-bala... We won't know the actual collateral damage till the update is released. =)
      - poizan42 1y ago
        There is nothing in that article saying anything about any upcoming requirements. Also it is written by a ChatGPT bot account, so it would be an invalid source even if it did. The only update even mentioned in that article is "Windows 10, version 1607 (the Anniversary Update released in August 2016)". In case you haven't noticed, that happened 9 years ago...
taneq 1y ago
I can kinda see where the idea of "copyrighting a number" makes sense when you're talking about a number that's multiple kilobytes in size, but trying to stake a legal claim to one of the 65536 possible 16-bit numbers is just wrong imo.
- Joel_Mckay 1y ago
  Indeed, the USB standards body prevented allocated company VID reuse, and thus greatly simplified identifying the correct hardware. There is also additional generic information like company name (often Trademarked) or serial number that may be queried from many devices as well. If it were free or cheap, than people would have just started another domain squatting business. That could have been far worse. =3

hxorr 1y ago

The issue was, if I recall correctly, that the Microsoft CDC driver was quite buggy. This led to the situation where CDC device vendors were unwilling to produce CDC compatible devices, because the default Microsoft driver would be used and, of course, the blame for any bugginess gets pinned on the hardware vendor. Hence the current situation of many CDC-type devices that are intentionally incompatible enough with the standard, in order to require the device vendor's own drivers which they can ensure meet their quality expectations

Joel_Mckay 1y ago
In general, the Microchip CDC driver was free to use. "The CDC class has been implemented in Windows (since Windows 98), macOS and most Linux distributions. Since Windows 10, no extra information has to be given in the start-up sequence as the operating system now has a generic driver that will be used for CDC. To support older versions of Windows (Windows 7 and earlier), provide an .inf file that associates with the correct driver." However, these will not support the high-speed bit-banged JTAG mode FTDI chips can perform with the right driver. =3