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'Not ever' is a broad statement. Would you rule out off-planet mining and manufacturing? Or the scaling of artificial meat production?

sokoloff 1y ago
I don't. If you do, maybe you could hypothesize a practically possible path from now to then and enlighten us Luddites? The overwhelmingly most likely "end of money for humans" comes from the extinction of humans.
- squidbeak 1y ago
  Believe me, ruling them out is the last thing I'd do. I fully expect them in the next decade or two. A practically possible path to both: Starship is perfected and mining companies begin operations in space. Vast data centers training spatial ai using virtual simulations perfect it well enough for general robotics to become practicable. Automation is then as follows: robotics manufacturing and maintenance is handled by robots. Mining is performed by robots. General manufacturing performed by robots. Potential manufacturing scales increase by orders of magnitudes. Where are the costs in this scenario that would prevent prices falling to zero? And if prices for all goods and virtually all services* fall to zero, what possible role can money have at that point, other than sitting on a shelf as a memento of a vanished system? *excluding sex workers.
  - thfuran 1y ago
    The cost is in transportation (aside from the cost of developing and producing all those automated systems). Where do you expect extra-terrestrial mining to occur and why do you think what's mined there would be used on Earth? The nearest place to mine would be the moon, and it's on the order of 1 million dollars per kg to bring things back. We could potentially drop that, but that's a hell of a base cost just for material transport. What makes you think that's going to be happening soon?
    - squidbeak 1y ago
      In the next couple of decades? Starship is real, space mining companies are real, NVIDIA Cosmos is real, robotics development is nascent, but real and thrilling. Ordinary market forces will ensure the uptake of robotics. You're calculating the expense of returning mined resources using past metrics that are superseded altogether in this scenario. For instance miniaturization suddenly won't be necessary for mining companies wishing to send gear to asteroids.
      - thfuran 1y ago
        >metrics that are superseded altogether in this scenario. For instance miniaturization suddenly won't be necessary for mining companies wishing to send gear to asteroids Nothing in the near future is superceding the tyranny of the rocket equation. It'll still be extremely expensive to send equipment to and retrieve material from space even if the spacecraft and mining equipment were literally free.
        squidbeak 1y ago
        You are simply incorrect.[1] Starship will change it all if it succeeds. The space sector is abuzz with the possibility of orbital refueling and the opportunities it will open up, eg [2] [1] https://orbitalindex.com/archive/2023-03-15-Issue-210/ https://orbitalindex.com/archive/2023-03-15-Issue-210/ [2] https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=50157.0 https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=50157.0
UncleMeat 1y ago
Why would off-planet mining and manufacturing make things easier?
- squidbeak 1y ago
  It was a reply to the assertion that land restrictions mean the resources for full automation will always be unavailable. I don't agree with his contention, but offered a likely workaround anyway.

sokoloff 1y ago

I don't. If you do, maybe you could hypothesize a practically possible path from now to then and enlighten us Luddites? The overwhelmingly most likely "end of money for humans" comes from the extinction of humans.

squidbeak 1y ago
Believe me, ruling them out is the last thing I'd do. I fully expect them in the next decade or two. A practically possible path to both: Starship is perfected and mining companies begin operations in space. Vast data centers training spatial ai using virtual simulations perfect it well enough for general robotics to become practicable. Automation is then as follows: robotics manufacturing and maintenance is handled by robots. Mining is performed by robots. General manufacturing performed by robots. Potential manufacturing scales increase by orders of magnitudes. Where are the costs in this scenario that would prevent prices falling to zero? And if prices for all goods and virtually all services* fall to zero, what possible role can money have at that point, other than sitting on a shelf as a memento of a vanished system? *excluding sex workers.
- thfuran 1y ago
  The cost is in transportation (aside from the cost of developing and producing all those automated systems). Where do you expect extra-terrestrial mining to occur and why do you think what's mined there would be used on Earth? The nearest place to mine would be the moon, and it's on the order of 1 million dollars per kg to bring things back. We could potentially drop that, but that's a hell of a base cost just for material transport. What makes you think that's going to be happening soon?
  - squidbeak 1y ago
    In the next couple of decades? Starship is real, space mining companies are real, NVIDIA Cosmos is real, robotics development is nascent, but real and thrilling. Ordinary market forces will ensure the uptake of robotics. You're calculating the expense of returning mined resources using past metrics that are superseded altogether in this scenario. For instance miniaturization suddenly won't be necessary for mining companies wishing to send gear to asteroids.
    - thfuran 1y ago
      >metrics that are superseded altogether in this scenario. For instance miniaturization suddenly won't be necessary for mining companies wishing to send gear to asteroids Nothing in the near future is superceding the tyranny of the rocket equation. It'll still be extremely expensive to send equipment to and retrieve material from space even if the spacecraft and mining equipment were literally free.
      - squidbeak 1y ago
        You are simply incorrect.[1] Starship will change it all if it succeeds. The space sector is abuzz with the possibility of orbital refueling and the opportunities it will open up, eg [2] [1] https://orbitalindex.com/archive/2023-03-15-Issue-210/ https://orbitalindex.com/archive/2023-03-15-Issue-210/ [2] https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=50157.0 https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=50157.0

UncleMeat 1y ago

Why would off-planet mining and manufacturing make things easier?

squidbeak 1y ago
It was a reply to the assertion that land restrictions mean the resources for full automation will always be unavailable. I don't agree with his contention, but offered a likely workaround anyway.