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This is basically the entire theme of "Abundance" by Klein and Thompson, for those looking for a longer read on this. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abunda

This is basically the entire theme of "Abundance" by Klein and Thompson, for those looking for a longer read on this. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_(Klein_and_Thompson_book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_(Klein_and_Thompson_...

spiritplumber 1y ago
thank you, i'll grab this!
rufus_foreman 1y ago
Another recent book along the same lines would be "Why Nothing Works: Who Killed Progress and How to Get It Back" by Marc Dunkelman: "When he looked into the history, Dunkelman realized that progressives have long swung back and forth between two opposing impulses. One is what he calls Hamiltonianism: the desire to achieve progress by empowering government and institutions to tackle big problems at the direction of strong leaders (like Robert Moses) and informed experts. The other is what he calls Jeffersonianism: the desire to prevent unaccountable centralized authorities (also like Robert Moses) from abusing ordinary citizens by empowering them to fight back." -- https://www.niskanencenter.org/why-nothing-works-with-marc-dunkelman/ https://www.niskanencenter.org/why-nothing-works-with-marc-d...
lkey 1y ago
Abundance is just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way neoliberalism with a new coat of paint. The answer to all questions is 'bust unions and environmental groups'. We've been here before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer_Alley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer_Alley All the Reaganite conservative institutions (https://www.abundancedc.org/speakers https://www.abundancedc.org/speakers) that are leery of fascism, but love business back this 'program'. We need a new 'New Deal', that rebuilds what was broken during these last 90 years. We need the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Perkins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Perkins of this era. "Frances Perkins was not just the architect of SSA: she also proposed and implemented many of the foundational labor and safety laws1 still relied upon by the American working class. We can also thank her for the 40-hour work week, minimum wage, unemployment compensation, worker’s compensation, workplace safety, abolition of child labor, direct federal aid to the states for unemployment relief, a revitalized federal employment service, and universal health insurance. Well, except the last. We are still working on the last. " She got everything she wanted done as Labor Sec. Except for universal healthcare. And it was a great loss for everything living American every year since.
- bryanlarsen 1y ago
  Somebody hasn't read the book, just knee jerk reactions to it.
  - lkey 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - eli_gottlieb 1y ago
      So basically you ignored the actual text in favor of the conspiracy theorist's "cui bono" about the funding structure behind the authors.
      - lkey 1y ago
        No, there's no conspiracy here. Ezra's probably a true believer, which I think is sadder honestly. There is no coordination besides shared interest in protecting capital, same as it ever was. Shared 'class interest' and 'class solidarity' if you like. Though some of these folks are probably in weird passive aggressive and catty group chats these days, like Andresson and Thiel. It is not a conspiracy to look at the super-pacs funding candidates with weird positions either. The transfers of cash are pretty open in our second gilded age. These 'third way' institutes and movements pop up every decade or so if you are paying attention. The literal 'Third Way' and 'Tea Party' movements were funded directly by some of these 'abundance' groups. But there's no 'shadowy cabal' or secret. They are open about their desires, and rely on marketing to paper over the obvious. Manufacturing consent for union breaking in Cali (Ezra didn't outright say it, but Josh Barro did) is clearly in their interest. It's also clear from many of them comments here like: 'I don't care who profits as long as there are suddenly houses' that show the 'abundance' gambit is succeeding. And to be clear, I'm not against the message 'build more housing', but these are not people you should trust. They need to prove they are serious. Their track record tells me they will bait, switch, and act as spoilers. Don't take just my word for it though! When they don't accomplish or even push for what they originally claimed their core goals are, remember this conversation.
    - 1y ago
thrance 1y ago
Wow, deregulation and austerity, what a fresh perspective on the economy! This abundance "movement" has absolutely nothing new to offer, it is simply a rebranding of neoliberalism. It's easy to spot too, just look at who backs the movement: the same old establishment democrats and their wealthy donors. The same people who have entranched the democratic party into this technocratic blob of ineffectiveness and societal erosion. In particular, it is financially backed by, among others, Peter Thiel and Mark Andreessen. This should raise some red flags. Also, I personally like winning. This abundance movement has exactly zero electoral hype. American voters don't care about it at all. Meanwhile, populist leftists like Mamdani are able to generate momentum for the left for the first time in decades. That Klein, Thompson and the billionaires behind them are so harshly criticizing them should raise additional red flags.
- RetiredRichard 1y ago
  The writer of this article (Dave) publicly dislikes Derek Thompson and keeps criticizing Matt Ygelasis for his austerity fetish, along with praising Mamdani
- sailingparrot 1y ago
  Your argument boils down to "people already said some things like this in the past" (ok, and?) and "some people I don't like agree with part of it", which is very weak and doesn't address anything in substance. You know, you can still want to be able to build housing without having to wait 1 year for permitting or not want to live in a place where making a basic train track is basically impossible because of the number of stakeholders that have to come to a consensus and still vote for Mamdani. You are allowed to have non black and white opinions. You can even have 1% of the things you think are good in common with Peter Thiel, and that won't immediately turn you into a far right psychopath. You can even, hear me out, be for less regulation on specific areas where there has been a massive lack of supply but not for "deregulating the economy" in it's entirety!
  - thrance 1y ago
    Housing can either be an investment vehicle or affordable, but not both at the same time. The abundance crowd remains willfully blind to this obvious reality, and is why they will fail. They promise to make housing affordable while receiving millions from people who became rich off of housing not being affordable. It fundamentally can't deliver on its promise, because it is completely compromised from the start. I perceive abundance as a big grift to keep the populist left out of the democratic party, which is something they spend a lot of energy doing. How else could you explain this obsession of the abundance crowd for shooting down any populist policy or messaging?
RetiredRichard 1y ago
I don't think Dave associates himself with the abundance movement
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

spiritplumber 1y ago

thank you, i'll grab this!

rufus_foreman 1y ago

Another recent book along the same lines would be "Why Nothing Works: Who Killed Progress and How to Get It Back" by Marc Dunkelman: "When he looked into the history, Dunkelman realized that progressives have long swung back and forth between two opposing impulses. One is what he calls Hamiltonianism: the desire to achieve progress by empowering government and institutions to tackle big problems at the direction of strong leaders (like Robert Moses) and informed experts. The other is what he calls Jeffersonianism: the desire to prevent unaccountable centralized authorities (also like Robert Moses) from abusing ordinary citizens by empowering them to fight back." -- https://www.niskanencenter.org/why-nothing-works-with-marc-dunkelman/ https://www.niskanencenter.org/why-nothing-works-with-marc-d...

lkey 1y ago

Abundance is just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way neoliberalism with a new coat of paint. The answer to all questions is 'bust unions and environmental groups'. We've been here before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer_Alley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer_Alley All the Reaganite conservative institutions (https://www.abundancedc.org/speakers https://www.abundancedc.org/speakers) that are leery of fascism, but love business back this 'program'. We need a new 'New Deal', that rebuilds what was broken during these last 90 years. We need the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Perkins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Perkins of this era. "Frances Perkins was not just the architect of SSA: she also proposed and implemented many of the foundational labor and safety laws1 still relied upon by the American working class. We can also thank her for the 40-hour work week, minimum wage, unemployment compensation, worker’s compensation, workplace safety, abolition of child labor, direct federal aid to the states for unemployment relief, a revitalized federal employment service, and universal health insurance. Well, except the last. We are still working on the last. " She got everything she wanted done as Labor Sec. Except for universal healthcare. And it was a great loss for everything living American every year since.

bryanlarsen 1y ago
Somebody hasn't read the book, just knee jerk reactions to it.
- lkey 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - eli_gottlieb 1y ago
    So basically you ignored the actual text in favor of the conspiracy theorist's "cui bono" about the funding structure behind the authors.
    - lkey 1y ago
      No, there's no conspiracy here. Ezra's probably a true believer, which I think is sadder honestly. There is no coordination besides shared interest in protecting capital, same as it ever was. Shared 'class interest' and 'class solidarity' if you like. Though some of these folks are probably in weird passive aggressive and catty group chats these days, like Andresson and Thiel. It is not a conspiracy to look at the super-pacs funding candidates with weird positions either. The transfers of cash are pretty open in our second gilded age. These 'third way' institutes and movements pop up every decade or so if you are paying attention. The literal 'Third Way' and 'Tea Party' movements were funded directly by some of these 'abundance' groups. But there's no 'shadowy cabal' or secret. They are open about their desires, and rely on marketing to paper over the obvious. Manufacturing consent for union breaking in Cali (Ezra didn't outright say it, but Josh Barro did) is clearly in their interest. It's also clear from many of them comments here like: 'I don't care who profits as long as there are suddenly houses' that show the 'abundance' gambit is succeeding. And to be clear, I'm not against the message 'build more housing', but these are not people you should trust. They need to prove they are serious. Their track record tells me they will bait, switch, and act as spoilers. Don't take just my word for it though! When they don't accomplish or even push for what they originally claimed their core goals are, remember this conversation.
  - 1y ago

thrance 1y ago

Wow, deregulation and austerity, what a fresh perspective on the economy! This abundance "movement" has absolutely nothing new to offer, it is simply a rebranding of neoliberalism. It's easy to spot too, just look at who backs the movement: the same old establishment democrats and their wealthy donors. The same people who have entranched the democratic party into this technocratic blob of ineffectiveness and societal erosion. In particular, it is financially backed by, among others, Peter Thiel and Mark Andreessen. This should raise some red flags. Also, I personally like winning. This abundance movement has exactly zero electoral hype. American voters don't care about it at all. Meanwhile, populist leftists like Mamdani are able to generate momentum for the left for the first time in decades. That Klein, Thompson and the billionaires behind them are so harshly criticizing them should raise additional red flags.

RetiredRichard 1y ago
The writer of this article (Dave) publicly dislikes Derek Thompson and keeps criticizing Matt Ygelasis for his austerity fetish, along with praising Mamdani
sailingparrot 1y ago
Your argument boils down to "people already said some things like this in the past" (ok, and?) and "some people I don't like agree with part of it", which is very weak and doesn't address anything in substance. You know, you can still want to be able to build housing without having to wait 1 year for permitting or not want to live in a place where making a basic train track is basically impossible because of the number of stakeholders that have to come to a consensus and still vote for Mamdani. You are allowed to have non black and white opinions. You can even have 1% of the things you think are good in common with Peter Thiel, and that won't immediately turn you into a far right psychopath. You can even, hear me out, be for less regulation on specific areas where there has been a massive lack of supply but not for "deregulating the economy" in it's entirety!
- thrance 1y ago
  Housing can either be an investment vehicle or affordable, but not both at the same time. The abundance crowd remains willfully blind to this obvious reality, and is why they will fail. They promise to make housing affordable while receiving millions from people who became rich off of housing not being affordable. It fundamentally can't deliver on its promise, because it is completely compromised from the start. I perceive abundance as a big grift to keep the populist left out of the democratic party, which is something they spend a lot of energy doing. How else could you explain this obsession of the abundance crowd for shooting down any populist policy or messaging?

RetiredRichard 1y ago

I don't think Dave associates himself with the abundance movement

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]