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The last time Palestinians voted they quite literally elected Hamas terrorists[0], you're making it out as if making Jews a minority and Palestinians a majority

The last time Palestinians voted they quite literally elected Hamas terrorists[0], you're making it out as if making Jews a minority and Palestinians a majority in Israel wouldn't represent an existential threat to the Jewish population. There are zero Jews living under Palestinian rule(i.e Gaza and the West Bank Areas A/B), why do you think it would be any different if they were given majority voting rights in Israel? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...

thrance 1y ago
After nearly a century of Israeli oppression and zero interest from the international community, them electing a terrorist organization is certainly understable, even if still not justified. The first step is to reassure Palestinians that their neighbors won't start mass-murdering them again, something Israel has currently no interest in doing.
- HDThoreaun 1y ago
  Of course its understandable. Its also understandable that the israelis are not willing to accept people who want to kill them into their state. Both sides want to kill each other.
  - jameshilliard 1y ago
    > Both sides want to kill each other. I don't think most Israelis actually want to kill Palestinians, but at a minimum I do think the majority of Palestinians probably want to expel all Israeli Jews from Israel(at least based on Palestinian opinion polling).
    - HDThoreaun 1y ago
      > I don't think most Israelis actually want to kill Palestinians Then why are they standing by while their democratically elected government enacts a starvation campaign? The reality is that most Israelis are now pro genocide, just like most Palestinians
    - thrance 1y ago
      Source? It seems to me the majority of Israel supports the invasion and occupation of Gaza.
      - jameshilliard 1y ago
        > It seems to me the majority of Israel supports the invasion and occupation of Gaza. This is likely the case at the moment(since there is a war after all), that doesn't mean they want to kill them all however.
- jameshilliard 1y ago
  > The first step is to reassure Palestinians that their neighbors won't start mass-murdering them again, something Israel has currently no interest in doing. Israelis don't just start killing Palestinians for no reason historically however, that pretty much always happens in response to some form of Palestinian aggression. It's not like Israel can just ignore attacks either as that would just encourage further attacks.
  - thrance 1y ago
    Israel is a settler colonial project, as far as I'm concerned they cast the first stone. Or rather, the British sending them here did. Not that it matters much in the end, but today Israel plays the role of the oppressor and Palestine of the oppressed.
    - jameshilliard 1y ago
      > Israel is a settler colonial project, as far as I'm concerned they cast the first stone. One problem with this conflict is you can credibly call either side the indigenous population depending on how far back in history you go. > Or rather, the British sending them here did. At a minimum you should go back to the 1800s during the Ottoman period which is when Jews started buying land from the Arab landowners. > Not that it matters much in the end, but today Israel plays the role of the oppressor and Palestine of the oppressed. This sort of entirely one-sided narrative is a huge impediment to peaceful coexistence.
      - ImPostingOnHN 1y ago
        > "This sort of entirely one-sided narrative is a huge impediment to peaceful coexistence." > "Israelis don't just start killing Palestinians for no reason historically however, that pretty much always happens in response to some form of Palestinian aggression" Fascinating how these 2 posts came from the same person. You are so close to getting it, you just need to take your advice from the first quote there and apply it to the second quote there. Notably, israel kills around a hundred innocent Palestinians in Gaza daily, unprovoked, while the Palestinians are queuing for food. israel also regularly stages settler terrorist attacks on innocent Palestinians in the west bank: killing Palestinians; burning Palestinian homes and cars and crops; often claiming Palestinian land as their own. When "the authorities" (the IDF) arrive, they often support the terrorists and join in the violence against Palestinians. But of course, it was because those innocent Palestinians are "being aggressive" by living in the west bank, which israel says they want, right? (They call it "greater israel", just like how the kremlin calls Ukraine "greater russia"). Obviously israel's ethnic cleansing is justified, because they really want someone else's land and stuff, right? > At a minimum you should go back to the 1800s We really don't need to. We just need to go back to the point where international laws came into being, including israel agreeing not to expand their territory through violence (a prerequisite to joining the UN). It doesn't matter who used to own it, what matters is global, international consensus on who owns what now (and who should), and global, international consensus on the right way to behave (in accordance with international law, as judged by the designated international courts). This goes even if israel strongly feels it is biased or unfair: after all, pretty much every criminal thinks the justice system that criticizes them is unfair. Like, of course criminals would say that, wouldn't they?
ImPostingOnHN 1y ago
Your post weirdly focuses on only the concerns of israelis, even though Palestinians are equal people with equal human rights, including an equal right to protection from israeli violence. Do you even realize that you're not treating Palestinians as humans? > The last time Palestinians voted they quite literally elected Hamas terrorists The last time israelis voted, they quite literally elected not only terrorists, but war criminals, criminals against humanity, and literal genociders. Obviously that's worse! Thus, israel has no moral high ground here to attack others, and should look inward and fix itself first. > There are zero Jews living under Palestinian rule "Palestinian rule" is not a thing at the moment: all Palestinians are currently ruled (dominated even) by a genocidal israeli military occupation that kills hundreds of innocent civilians daily.
- jameshilliard 1y ago
  > Your post weirdly focuses on only the concerns of israelis, even though Palestinians are equal people with equal human rights, including an equal right to protection from israeli violence. Do you even realize that you're not treating Palestinians as humans? It's not clear what you're suggesting in practice, we can all say Palestinians should be given equal rights in an ideal world but that doesn't really bring us any closer to resolving the conflict. > The last time israelis voted, they quite literally elected not only terrorists, but war criminals, criminals against humanity, and literal genociders. Obviously that's worse! Thus, israel has no moral high ground here to attack others, and should look inward and fix itself first. I'm certainly not a fan of the current Israeli government but with how Israeli elections(proportional representation) work you tend to get more extremist parties than you would in systems like the United States where you usually just end up with a two party system. > "Palestinian rule" is not a thing at the moment: all Palestinians are currently ruled (dominated even) by a genocidal israeli military occupation that kills hundreds of innocent civilians daily. There is a form of Palestinian rule in which the Palestinian Authority exercises a certain level of control in the West Bank, in Gaza Hamas still retains some control as well. I would agree it's not the same thing as an independent state but I don't think characterizing it as no Palestinian rule at all is accurate either.
  - 1y ago

thrance 1y ago

After nearly a century of Israeli oppression and zero interest from the international community, them electing a terrorist organization is certainly understable, even if still not justified. The first step is to reassure Palestinians that their neighbors won't start mass-murdering them again, something Israel has currently no interest in doing.

HDThoreaun 1y ago
Of course its understandable. Its also understandable that the israelis are not willing to accept people who want to kill them into their state. Both sides want to kill each other.
- jameshilliard 1y ago
  > Both sides want to kill each other. I don't think most Israelis actually want to kill Palestinians, but at a minimum I do think the majority of Palestinians probably want to expel all Israeli Jews from Israel(at least based on Palestinian opinion polling).
  - HDThoreaun 1y ago
    > I don't think most Israelis actually want to kill Palestinians Then why are they standing by while their democratically elected government enacts a starvation campaign? The reality is that most Israelis are now pro genocide, just like most Palestinians
  - thrance 1y ago
    Source? It seems to me the majority of Israel supports the invasion and occupation of Gaza.
    - jameshilliard 1y ago
      > It seems to me the majority of Israel supports the invasion and occupation of Gaza. This is likely the case at the moment(since there is a war after all), that doesn't mean they want to kill them all however.
jameshilliard 1y ago
> The first step is to reassure Palestinians that their neighbors won't start mass-murdering them again, something Israel has currently no interest in doing. Israelis don't just start killing Palestinians for no reason historically however, that pretty much always happens in response to some form of Palestinian aggression. It's not like Israel can just ignore attacks either as that would just encourage further attacks.
- thrance 1y ago
  Israel is a settler colonial project, as far as I'm concerned they cast the first stone. Or rather, the British sending them here did. Not that it matters much in the end, but today Israel plays the role of the oppressor and Palestine of the oppressed.
  - jameshilliard 1y ago
    > Israel is a settler colonial project, as far as I'm concerned they cast the first stone. One problem with this conflict is you can credibly call either side the indigenous population depending on how far back in history you go. > Or rather, the British sending them here did. At a minimum you should go back to the 1800s during the Ottoman period which is when Jews started buying land from the Arab landowners. > Not that it matters much in the end, but today Israel plays the role of the oppressor and Palestine of the oppressed. This sort of entirely one-sided narrative is a huge impediment to peaceful coexistence.
    - ImPostingOnHN 1y ago
      > "This sort of entirely one-sided narrative is a huge impediment to peaceful coexistence." > "Israelis don't just start killing Palestinians for no reason historically however, that pretty much always happens in response to some form of Palestinian aggression" Fascinating how these 2 posts came from the same person. You are so close to getting it, you just need to take your advice from the first quote there and apply it to the second quote there. Notably, israel kills around a hundred innocent Palestinians in Gaza daily, unprovoked, while the Palestinians are queuing for food. israel also regularly stages settler terrorist attacks on innocent Palestinians in the west bank: killing Palestinians; burning Palestinian homes and cars and crops; often claiming Palestinian land as their own. When "the authorities" (the IDF) arrive, they often support the terrorists and join in the violence against Palestinians. But of course, it was because those innocent Palestinians are "being aggressive" by living in the west bank, which israel says they want, right? (They call it "greater israel", just like how the kremlin calls Ukraine "greater russia"). Obviously israel's ethnic cleansing is justified, because they really want someone else's land and stuff, right? > At a minimum you should go back to the 1800s We really don't need to. We just need to go back to the point where international laws came into being, including israel agreeing not to expand their territory through violence (a prerequisite to joining the UN). It doesn't matter who used to own it, what matters is global, international consensus on who owns what now (and who should), and global, international consensus on the right way to behave (in accordance with international law, as judged by the designated international courts). This goes even if israel strongly feels it is biased or unfair: after all, pretty much every criminal thinks the justice system that criticizes them is unfair. Like, of course criminals would say that, wouldn't they?

ImPostingOnHN 1y ago

Your post weirdly focuses on only the concerns of israelis, even though Palestinians are equal people with equal human rights, including an equal right to protection from israeli violence. Do you even realize that you're not treating Palestinians as humans? > The last time Palestinians voted they quite literally elected Hamas terrorists The last time israelis voted, they quite literally elected not only terrorists, but war criminals, criminals against humanity, and literal genociders. Obviously that's worse! Thus, israel has no moral high ground here to attack others, and should look inward and fix itself first. > There are zero Jews living under Palestinian rule "Palestinian rule" is not a thing at the moment: all Palestinians are currently ruled (dominated even) by a genocidal israeli military occupation that kills hundreds of innocent civilians daily.

jameshilliard 1y ago
> Your post weirdly focuses on only the concerns of israelis, even though Palestinians are equal people with equal human rights, including an equal right to protection from israeli violence. Do you even realize that you're not treating Palestinians as humans? It's not clear what you're suggesting in practice, we can all say Palestinians should be given equal rights in an ideal world but that doesn't really bring us any closer to resolving the conflict. > The last time israelis voted, they quite literally elected not only terrorists, but war criminals, criminals against humanity, and literal genociders. Obviously that's worse! Thus, israel has no moral high ground here to attack others, and should look inward and fix itself first. I'm certainly not a fan of the current Israeli government but with how Israeli elections(proportional representation) work you tend to get more extremist parties than you would in systems like the United States where you usually just end up with a two party system. > "Palestinian rule" is not a thing at the moment: all Palestinians are currently ruled (dominated even) by a genocidal israeli military occupation that kills hundreds of innocent civilians daily. There is a form of Palestinian rule in which the Palestinian Authority exercises a certain level of control in the West Bank, in Gaza Hamas still retains some control as well. I would agree it's not the same thing as an independent state but I don't think characterizing it as no Palestinian rule at all is accurate either.
- 1y ago