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> A country loses its right to "re-establish deterrence" when the population it's "deterring" is born inside its own de-facto borders, and when the only reason

> A country loses its right to "re-establish deterrence" when the population it's "deterring" is born inside its own de-facto borders, and when the only reason it needs to deter so many of them is that they would (rightly) like one of a) sovereignty or b) voting rights inside the federal system that controls their borders and can kick down the doors of the houses they were born in. It's not just Palestinians they needed to deter, by the way most Israelis were also born within the borders as well. Israel has in the past made efforts to give more sovereignty to Palestinians but those efforts have largely backfired. I think initial efforts really need to focus on de-radicalization of Palestinians first before there's any reasonable chance another attempt at giving them more sovereignty will be more successful. > If Israel would like to give Gaza full sovereignty, or Palestinians born inside the occupied territories the right to vote in the federal systems that determine their law enforcement environment, we can talk about deterrence and law enforcement respectively. They already tried that[0], it didn't work out and arguably made the situation worse as they voted for Hamas[1] which quite openly advocates for the destruction of Israel. > Israel has unilateral control of who it recognizes as its citizens, and what sovereign states it recognizes. No complaint about current or past bad behavior by the Palestinians excuses its failure to grant sovereignty or voting rights to people under its territorial control. Are you seriously suggesting Israel can just give citizenship/voting rights to all Palestinians and make a group that largely wants their destruction a voting majority? There's a reason this will basically never happen, and that reason is that it would effectively be suicidal for Israelis. This sort of one-state solution is completely unrealistic. Some variation of a two-state solution is probably the most realistic, but I think we're a long way off from that being viable due to a lack of Palestinian desire for peaceful coexistence. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_the... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...

gatlin 1y ago
> Are you seriously suggesting Israel can just give citizenship/voting rights to all Palestinians and make a group that largely wants their destruction a voting majority? Can you think of any reason why Palestinians might feel this way? Does anything come to mind?
- jameshilliard 1y ago
  > Can you think of any reason why Palestinians might feel this way? There are multiple factors, radicalization has long been a major issue in Palestinian schools[0]. [0] https://unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Schools-in-the-Grip-of-Terror-UNRWA-Report.pdf https://unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Schools-in-th...
  - markessien 1y ago
    Being forced into a never ending apartheid situation may also be the reason. Give them voting rights or give them a state, it's pretty simple.
    - jameshilliard 1y ago
      > Being forced into a never ending apartheid situation may also be the reason. An occupation is not apartheid. > Give them voting rights Israel tried that...Palestinians straight up voted for Hamas terrorists[0] who promptly eliminated voting rights(although based on opinion polling Hamas would likely be elected again). > give them a state Israel tried moving towards that in Gaza[1], it backfired spectacularly leading to the current conflict. Any other ideas on how to move towards peaceful coexistence? I think the first step is some sort of de-radicalization program, but not sure how one would implement that. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_the...
      - markessien 1y ago
        Israel has said: The Palestinians will never have a state. They have also said - the Palestinians will never vote in Israel. Is this not apartheid?
        jameshilliard 1y ago
markessien 1y ago
So eternal apartheid? That's what will make the Palestinians happy? When the Tamil Tigers were defeated, they were able to vote in their country. The separatists in Spain get to vote in Spain. The kurds get to vote in Turkey. Israel is the only country that says: do not separate and create your own state, but at the same time if you stay here, we will NOT give you civil rights.
- jameshilliard 1y ago
  > So eternal apartheid? That's what will make the Palestinians happy? When the Tamil Tigers were defeated, they were able to vote in their country. The separatists in Spain get to vote in Spain. The kurds get to vote in Turkey. A military occupation is not an apartheid, apartheid is race based discrimination, the occupation here is citizenship based discrimination(which basically all countries have in various forms). I'm not really sure what the best solution here is, but it's probably going to need to involve some serious de-radicalization on the part of the Palestinian people and then some form of a two-state solution. > Israel is the only country that says: do not separate and create your own state, but at the same time if you stay here, we will NOT give you civil rights. They tried that approach already with Gaza, it backfired massively. It's pretty obvious giving the people who elected terrorists(and based on Palestinian opinion polling they would likely elect Hamas again) the right to vote in Israeli elections isn't going to lead to a peaceful coexistence.
  - markessien 1y ago
    An eternal military occupation, where the GOVERNMENT says - you will NEVER get a country, and you will NEVER be part of our country IS apartheid. These are direct, unambiguous statements from the Prime Minister and all members of the cabinet. They have said that the Palestinians will NEVER get a state. So what are you saying then about Israel wanting a two state solution? They have said there will be no state, and they have said they will not give civil rights. This is apartheid.
    - jameshilliard 1y ago
      > An eternal military occupation, where the GOVERNMENT says - you will NEVER get a country, and you will NEVER be part of our country IS apartheid. That's not apartheid, apartheid means race based discrimination which is simply not an accurate characterization of what is going on here. > These are direct, unambiguous statements from the Prime Minister and all members of the cabinet. They have said that the Palestinians will NEVER get a state. Israel isn't a dictatorship and these things can change over time, I'm certainly no fan of Netanyahu in general, right now there is very little support for a two state solution amongst Israelis because they largely don't believe the Palestinians currently have a desire to live in peace with Israeli Jews. Unfortunately they appear to be correct for the time being but if those viewpoints were to change on the Palestinian side I would expect Israeli opinions to change as well. I'm just not sure how you de-radicalize a population like the Palestinians. > So what are you saying then about Israel wanting a two state solution? They have said there will be no state, and they have said they will not give civil rights. My point is that Israelis in the past have supported a two state solution, obviously there is currently a war going on right now so a two state solution is not going to happen any time soon. > This is apartheid. That's still not apartheid, it's an occupation, there's a difference.

gatlin 1y ago

> Are you seriously suggesting Israel can just give citizenship/voting rights to all Palestinians and make a group that largely wants their destruction a voting majority? Can you think of any reason why Palestinians might feel this way? Does anything come to mind?

jameshilliard 1y ago
> Can you think of any reason why Palestinians might feel this way? There are multiple factors, radicalization has long been a major issue in Palestinian schools[0]. [0] https://unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Schools-in-the-Grip-of-Terror-UNRWA-Report.pdf https://unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/Schools-in-th...
- markessien 1y ago
  Being forced into a never ending apartheid situation may also be the reason. Give them voting rights or give them a state, it's pretty simple.
  - jameshilliard 1y ago
    > Being forced into a never ending apartheid situation may also be the reason. An occupation is not apartheid. > Give them voting rights Israel tried that...Palestinians straight up voted for Hamas terrorists[0] who promptly eliminated voting rights(although based on opinion polling Hamas would likely be elected again). > give them a state Israel tried moving towards that in Gaza[1], it backfired spectacularly leading to the current conflict. Any other ideas on how to move towards peaceful coexistence? I think the first step is some sort of de-radicalization program, but not sure how one would implement that. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_the_Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_the...
    - markessien 1y ago
      Israel has said: The Palestinians will never have a state. They have also said - the Palestinians will never vote in Israel. Is this not apartheid?
      - jameshilliard 1y ago

markessien 1y ago

So eternal apartheid? That's what will make the Palestinians happy? When the Tamil Tigers were defeated, they were able to vote in their country. The separatists in Spain get to vote in Spain. The kurds get to vote in Turkey. Israel is the only country that says: do not separate and create your own state, but at the same time if you stay here, we will NOT give you civil rights.

jameshilliard 1y ago
> So eternal apartheid? That's what will make the Palestinians happy? When the Tamil Tigers were defeated, they were able to vote in their country. The separatists in Spain get to vote in Spain. The kurds get to vote in Turkey. A military occupation is not an apartheid, apartheid is race based discrimination, the occupation here is citizenship based discrimination(which basically all countries have in various forms). I'm not really sure what the best solution here is, but it's probably going to need to involve some serious de-radicalization on the part of the Palestinian people and then some form of a two-state solution. > Israel is the only country that says: do not separate and create your own state, but at the same time if you stay here, we will NOT give you civil rights. They tried that approach already with Gaza, it backfired massively. It's pretty obvious giving the people who elected terrorists(and based on Palestinian opinion polling they would likely elect Hamas again) the right to vote in Israeli elections isn't going to lead to a peaceful coexistence.
- markessien 1y ago
  An eternal military occupation, where the GOVERNMENT says - you will NEVER get a country, and you will NEVER be part of our country IS apartheid. These are direct, unambiguous statements from the Prime Minister and all members of the cabinet. They have said that the Palestinians will NEVER get a state. So what are you saying then about Israel wanting a two state solution? They have said there will be no state, and they have said they will not give civil rights. This is apartheid.
  - jameshilliard 1y ago
    > An eternal military occupation, where the GOVERNMENT says - you will NEVER get a country, and you will NEVER be part of our country IS apartheid. That's not apartheid, apartheid means race based discrimination which is simply not an accurate characterization of what is going on here. > These are direct, unambiguous statements from the Prime Minister and all members of the cabinet. They have said that the Palestinians will NEVER get a state. Israel isn't a dictatorship and these things can change over time, I'm certainly no fan of Netanyahu in general, right now there is very little support for a two state solution amongst Israelis because they largely don't believe the Palestinians currently have a desire to live in peace with Israeli Jews. Unfortunately they appear to be correct for the time being but if those viewpoints were to change on the Palestinian side I would expect Israeli opinions to change as well. I'm just not sure how you de-radicalize a population like the Palestinians. > So what are you saying then about Israel wanting a two state solution? They have said there will be no state, and they have said they will not give civil rights. My point is that Israelis in the past have supported a two state solution, obviously there is currently a war going on right now so a two state solution is not going to happen any time soon. > This is apartheid. That's still not apartheid, it's an occupation, there's a difference.