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I've been a software engineer for quite a number of years now. I bought a mac and iphone a few months back because I wanted to look into iphone development and

I've been a software engineer for quite a number of years now. I bought a mac and iphone a few months back because I wanted to look into iphone development and there was a lot of cursing involved. First the forms were incredibly bad for a new Swedish user. Then there turned out to be some kind of sync issue between account creation and when it can be used, but the error message did not reflect that in any way whatsoever. The next day the same thing worked. On the one hand they have a support chat to contact and it's great, just being able to contact an actual person was a shock. On the other hand support couldn't help with my problem and I would not recommend the onboarding experience to anyone. I'm never buying a mac again if I can avoid it.

inetknght 1y ago
> I've been a software engineer for quite a number of years now. ... I bought a mac and iphone a few months back ... and there was a lot of cursing involved. I'm not sure what's worse: the inane keyboard compared to Linux or the ridiculously dumbed-down featureset that makes it effectively impossible for a power user to even try to transition into macOS.
- flakeoil 1y ago
  The keyboard issue when switching from Windows/Linux to Mac is understated. It's a pain and I think it's worse for non-english keyboards/characters. You have to use plugins/3rd party software and relearn new keys.
- fmbb 1y ago
  What powers are you missing? Zsh works the same. You of course have to learn a real (BSD) Unix userspace instead of some silly GNU amalgamation, but that is usually quick.
  - inetknght 1y ago
    > Zsh works the same. zsh is nice, but I don't like it. I use bash. As for what powers am I missing? Absolutely missing keys, and not every input field is tabbable. If it was just the key sequences that were different, I would cope with that.
    - stnmtn 1y ago
      So the biggest thing is the laptop keyboard layout isn't great, and not every input field is tabbable? And that prevents powers users from even trying to migrate?
      - inetknght 1y ago
        > that prevents powers users from even trying to migrate? Prevents? No. Hinders? Absolutely. I only have a mac because it was issued by work as a loaner while they set up my new Linux laptop. I wouldn't want to use it as a daily driver at all because I still exclusively use Linux at home, and likely would never get over the keyboard differences.
      - sagarm 1y ago
        It's a serious annoyance, and when all I really need is Chrome and proper GNU userspace and terminal to access it, why bother? That plus the nagging is hardly better than Windows at this point.
- alexdbird 1y ago
  When I see someone calling the keyboard things like 'inane' I read 'not what I'm used to'. Personally I found the keyboard a breath of fresh air when I switched from Windows/Linux. The whole text editing experience is gloriously consistent and logical, though marred by a growing number of cross-platform apps that don't behave correctly. What I think of as inane is Linux's having a slightly different key combo for copy depending on what context you're in. Or all the mad extended keyboard keys I used to use that were in a different place on every laptop. [the keyboard experience is much less well thought out on non-English keyboards though, as another comment points out, come on Apple sort it out]
  - macintux 1y ago
    What drive me crazy when using Windows for work is the abysmal copy/paste support. Just 2 minutes ago I started an email, was composing a numbered list of steps, saw that a co-worker sent another email to the same thread, so I copied the text I was working on and replied to the latest mail. The numbered list of steps was no longer a numbered list that I could continue auto-incrementing, but just plain text. And that's just from one Microsoft program to itself. Copying text between two different Microsoft apps rarely preserves the formatting I want. Copying text between Microsoft and a 3rd party application is guaranteed to be an exercise in frustration.
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      On the other hand I cannot stand it when copy/paste preserves formatting. The last thing I want when I paste some text somewhere else is fonts, colors, hyperlinks, and numbered lists coming along with it. 90% (or more) of the time I just want the plain text.
      - thewebguyd 1y ago
        Same. But there are a few rare instances I do want formatting preserved. I've resorted to using PowerToys on Windows for this, it has a little utility called Advanced Paste. Win+Shift+V brings up a little modal and you can choose to paste as plain text, markdown, json, and a bunch of other functions, or you can give it your OpenAI API key and have ChatGPT format clipboard contents for you.
- wpm 1y ago
  Inane? You have readline/emacs keyboard shortcuts out of the box everywhere an app uses a system text box object. Even in Electron apps.
  - inetknght 1y ago
    No keypad, no pageup/pagedown/home/end/delete (I use all of them very frequently), arrow keys are misplaced and tiny (also use them a lot), no F1-F12 keys, no screenshot button, funky command key instead of using control key like any sane OS, and the command key is where the option key belongs, blah blah. Yes, inane.
    - thewebguyd 1y ago
      The OS supports all of those keys still. Yeah you don't get them on a laptop keyboard but I rarely use the laptop keyboard as is, it's docked 80+% of the time for me at my desk so I have a nice full size keyboard I use. Never missed a dedicated screenshot button though, I always just Cmd+Shift+4
    - robertoandred 1y ago
      Why would you want to use a Control key that's hard to reach when the Command key is right under your thumb?
      - vel0city 1y ago
        I'm only just now using a Mac again after not using them since elementary school. Tucking my thumbs under the rest of my hand to press the command key is a motion I'm really not used to, while as before I was really used to using my pinky to press/hold the control key often. I do have to say though, its nice not having to worry about situations where I need to remember some odd shortcut for something that actually supports control characters like text consoles. I never need to worry about "does ctrl+c actually copy here, or does it kill things?" They're just different button presses. I get the logic these days of having those things be different keypresses than control key logic. A lot of keyboard shortcuts I use daily now feel quite alien because of tucking my thumb under to reach the command key. And boy is it sometimes annoying having so many shortcuts using number keys in them. And the common jump between words or jump to the end or start of a line seem to be backwards in my mind (command+arrow versus option+arrow), I tend to get mixed up on those a bit right now.
reeredfdfdf 1y ago
Yeah, as somebody who switched from Linux to Mac recently, I feel that MacOS is a nuisance. Yet it's a nuisance I can tolerate with some tweaking, when in return I get much better battery life, screen and keyboard compared to any other options provided by my company.
madaxe_again 1y ago
I know I’m pretty much repeating what the GP said, but it’s crazy how far they have strayed. Around 20 years ago (which, on reflection, is quite a long time) I, as a developer, moved to mac, as the way it all just worked without having to wade through the weeds was unbelievably refreshing. Couldn’t be more different to the experience you describe. I bought my last Mac over a decade ago now - I’m now back on windows, as if I’m going to be nagged in an adware UI, I may as well use the one that gets in my way less.
bjoli 1y ago
Don't forget how some of the default shortcuts can't be typed on a keyboard layout that uses alt-gr to type things like @. How the fuck did that get past QC? KDE on Linux has a reputation of being janky, but I have never had to put up with things being actually unusable by design.

inetknght 1y ago

> I've been a software engineer for quite a number of years now. ... I bought a mac and iphone a few months back ... and there was a lot of cursing involved. I'm not sure what's worse: the inane keyboard compared to Linux or the ridiculously dumbed-down featureset that makes it effectively impossible for a power user to even try to transition into macOS.

flakeoil 1y ago
The keyboard issue when switching from Windows/Linux to Mac is understated. It's a pain and I think it's worse for non-english keyboards/characters. You have to use plugins/3rd party software and relearn new keys.
fmbb 1y ago
What powers are you missing? Zsh works the same. You of course have to learn a real (BSD) Unix userspace instead of some silly GNU amalgamation, but that is usually quick.
- inetknght 1y ago
  > Zsh works the same. zsh is nice, but I don't like it. I use bash. As for what powers am I missing? Absolutely missing keys, and not every input field is tabbable. If it was just the key sequences that were different, I would cope with that.
  - stnmtn 1y ago
    So the biggest thing is the laptop keyboard layout isn't great, and not every input field is tabbable? And that prevents powers users from even trying to migrate?
    - inetknght 1y ago
      > that prevents powers users from even trying to migrate? Prevents? No. Hinders? Absolutely. I only have a mac because it was issued by work as a loaner while they set up my new Linux laptop. I wouldn't want to use it as a daily driver at all because I still exclusively use Linux at home, and likely would never get over the keyboard differences.
    - sagarm 1y ago
      It's a serious annoyance, and when all I really need is Chrome and proper GNU userspace and terminal to access it, why bother? That plus the nagging is hardly better than Windows at this point.
alexdbird 1y ago
When I see someone calling the keyboard things like 'inane' I read 'not what I'm used to'. Personally I found the keyboard a breath of fresh air when I switched from Windows/Linux. The whole text editing experience is gloriously consistent and logical, though marred by a growing number of cross-platform apps that don't behave correctly. What I think of as inane is Linux's having a slightly different key combo for copy depending on what context you're in. Or all the mad extended keyboard keys I used to use that were in a different place on every laptop. [the keyboard experience is much less well thought out on non-English keyboards though, as another comment points out, come on Apple sort it out]
- macintux 1y ago
  What drive me crazy when using Windows for work is the abysmal copy/paste support. Just 2 minutes ago I started an email, was composing a numbered list of steps, saw that a co-worker sent another email to the same thread, so I copied the text I was working on and replied to the latest mail. The numbered list of steps was no longer a numbered list that I could continue auto-incrementing, but just plain text. And that's just from one Microsoft program to itself. Copying text between two different Microsoft apps rarely preserves the formatting I want. Copying text between Microsoft and a 3rd party application is guaranteed to be an exercise in frustration.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    On the other hand I cannot stand it when copy/paste preserves formatting. The last thing I want when I paste some text somewhere else is fonts, colors, hyperlinks, and numbered lists coming along with it. 90% (or more) of the time I just want the plain text.
    - thewebguyd 1y ago
      Same. But there are a few rare instances I do want formatting preserved. I've resorted to using PowerToys on Windows for this, it has a little utility called Advanced Paste. Win+Shift+V brings up a little modal and you can choose to paste as plain text, markdown, json, and a bunch of other functions, or you can give it your OpenAI API key and have ChatGPT format clipboard contents for you.
wpm 1y ago
Inane? You have readline/emacs keyboard shortcuts out of the box everywhere an app uses a system text box object. Even in Electron apps.
- inetknght 1y ago
  No keypad, no pageup/pagedown/home/end/delete (I use all of them very frequently), arrow keys are misplaced and tiny (also use them a lot), no F1-F12 keys, no screenshot button, funky command key instead of using control key like any sane OS, and the command key is where the option key belongs, blah blah. Yes, inane.
  - thewebguyd 1y ago
    The OS supports all of those keys still. Yeah you don't get them on a laptop keyboard but I rarely use the laptop keyboard as is, it's docked 80+% of the time for me at my desk so I have a nice full size keyboard I use. Never missed a dedicated screenshot button though, I always just Cmd+Shift+4
  - robertoandred 1y ago
    Why would you want to use a Control key that's hard to reach when the Command key is right under your thumb?
    - vel0city 1y ago
      I'm only just now using a Mac again after not using them since elementary school. Tucking my thumbs under the rest of my hand to press the command key is a motion I'm really not used to, while as before I was really used to using my pinky to press/hold the control key often. I do have to say though, its nice not having to worry about situations where I need to remember some odd shortcut for something that actually supports control characters like text consoles. I never need to worry about "does ctrl+c actually copy here, or does it kill things?" They're just different button presses. I get the logic these days of having those things be different keypresses than control key logic. A lot of keyboard shortcuts I use daily now feel quite alien because of tucking my thumb under to reach the command key. And boy is it sometimes annoying having so many shortcuts using number keys in them. And the common jump between words or jump to the end or start of a line seem to be backwards in my mind (command+arrow versus option+arrow), I tend to get mixed up on those a bit right now.

reeredfdfdf 1y ago

Yeah, as somebody who switched from Linux to Mac recently, I feel that MacOS is a nuisance. Yet it's a nuisance I can tolerate with some tweaking, when in return I get much better battery life, screen and keyboard compared to any other options provided by my company.

madaxe_again 1y ago

I know I’m pretty much repeating what the GP said, but it’s crazy how far they have strayed. Around 20 years ago (which, on reflection, is quite a long time) I, as a developer, moved to mac, as the way it all just worked without having to wade through the weeds was unbelievably refreshing. Couldn’t be more different to the experience you describe. I bought my last Mac over a decade ago now - I’m now back on windows, as if I’m going to be nagged in an adware UI, I may as well use the one that gets in my way less.

bjoli 1y ago

Don't forget how some of the default shortcuts can't be typed on a keyboard layout that uses alt-gr to type things like @. How the fuck did that get past QC? KDE on Linux has a reputation of being janky, but I have never had to put up with things being actually unusable by design.