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> Sure. They did that when they killed Sinwar. After that, they could have just continued to Mossad individual leaders in Hamas. Killing one enemy leader is in

> Sure. They did that when they killed Sinwar. After that, they could have just continued to Mossad individual leaders in Hamas. Killing one enemy leader is insufficient to re-establish deterrence, with how severe the October 7 attacks were I don't think Israel can possibly accept any outcome that doesn't effectively remove Hamas from power in Gaza. > Not relevant to America. It still has some effect in America, but less so than other parts of the world.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Killing one enemy leader is insufficient to re-establish deterrence They'd killed more than one at that point. Like, Hezbollah got the message pretty clearly.
- jameshilliard 1y ago
  > They'd killed more than one at that point. However Hamas has yet to capitulate/surrender, Israel basically has no choice but to finish Hamas off if they won't surrender, not doing so would significantly weaken their deterrence capabilities and allow Hamas to rebuild. There are potential consequences to ceasefire agreements where an enemies leadership retains power[0] historically. > Like, Hezbollah got the message pretty clearly. They eventually got the message after Israel essentially eliminated the entirety of their leadership chart multiple levels deep and crushed Hezbollah's will to fight, the ceasefire Hezbollah eventually agreed to was effectively a surrender agreement. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Israel basically has no choice but to finish Hamas off Sure. Doesn't require starving civilians. > after Israel essentially eliminated the entirety of their leadership chart multiple levels deep Yeah. Do this.
    - jameshilliard 1y ago
      > Sure. Doesn't require starving civilians. Sure, and I don't see credible evidence that they are[0]. Just more of the same false narratives pushed by the all too common antisemitic UN officials[1]. [0] https://unwatch.org/hillel-neuer-on-sky-news-fabricated-u-n-backed-report-on-famine-in-gaza-is-a-complete-fraud/ https://unwatch.org/hillel-neuer-on-sky-news-fabricated-u-n-... [1] https://unwatch.org/legal-analysis-of-un-food-rapporteur-michael-fakhris-2024-report-to-un-general-assembly/ https://unwatch.org/legal-analysis-of-un-food-rapporteur-mic...
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > don't see credible evidence that they are An NGO "Agence France-Presse has described...as 'a lobby group with strong ties to Israel'" [1] is not a credible source for disputing two separate groups at the UN, the IPF and--at this point--more than a few independent investigations. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Watch#cite_note-GazaAFP-5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Watch#cite_note-GazaAFP-5
        jameshilliard 1y ago
        > An NGO "Agence France-Presse has described...as 'a lobby group with strong ties to Israel'" [1] is not a credible source for disputing two separate groups at the UN, the IPF and--at this point--more than a few independent investigations. This doesn't make the information they are putting out false, the UN bias against Israel is well documented by many sources.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > This doesn't make the information they are putting out false It makes it unreliable. If you’re claiming the IPC is an unreliable source, you need a reliable source to back you up on that. (And neither article actually cites any data that would undermine the IPC’s case.) I’m genuinely open to being convinced. Another comment raised the issue of insufficient CDRs for IPC 5 status, which may or may not be relevant. But these UN Watch interviews are rally the base stuff, not argument.
  - GreenWatermelon 1y ago
    What Israel is doing is essentially sowing the seeds for a new crop of leaders hell-bent on destroying Israel. Children who saw ghe carnage Israel is inflicting will grow up to join Hamas and Hezbollah, and the cycle repeats.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > What Israel is doing is essentially sowing the seeds for a new crop of leaders hell-bent on destroying Israel This isn't necessary! Plenty of peoples have overcome cycles of revenge. There isn't something inherent to Israelis and Gazans that requires they metabolise past trauma into future violence.
      - GreenWatermelon 1y ago
        Overcoming this cycle requires the cooperation of both sides, or at the very least that both sides stop fucking with one another. Israel, the stronger entity, should've been the one to abstain first and attempt to understand and forgive, instead they kept building illegal settlements and driving more and more people out there homes. Israel made sure the embers stayed hot, and I can't think of any reason for that aside from hoping those hot embers produce a flame that justifies genocide and completely eradicating the Palestinian population.
    - jameshilliard 1y ago
      > What Israel is doing is essentially sowing the seeds for a new crop of leaders hell-bent on destroying Israel. The current leaders have largely been hell-bent on destroying Israel already...
      - GreenWatermelon 1y ago
        Yes, the current leaders are the result of Natenyahu's previous harvest. There is no shortage of articles on the internet detailing how Israel is the one responsible for propping up Hamas. And the current leaders of Iran are the fruits of what the USA/CIA sowed by toppling a popular democracy and replacing it with a despotic monarchy.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> Killing one enemy leader is insufficient to re-establish deterrence They'd killed more than one at that point. Like, Hezbollah got the message pretty clearly.

jameshilliard 1y ago
> They'd killed more than one at that point. However Hamas has yet to capitulate/surrender, Israel basically has no choice but to finish Hamas off if they won't surrender, not doing so would significantly weaken their deterrence capabilities and allow Hamas to rebuild. There are potential consequences to ceasefire agreements where an enemies leadership retains power[0] historically. > Like, Hezbollah got the message pretty clearly. They eventually got the message after Israel essentially eliminated the entirety of their leadership chart multiple levels deep and crushed Hezbollah's will to fight, the ceasefire Hezbollah eventually agreed to was effectively a surrender agreement. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Israel basically has no choice but to finish Hamas off Sure. Doesn't require starving civilians. > after Israel essentially eliminated the entirety of their leadership chart multiple levels deep Yeah. Do this.
  - jameshilliard 1y ago
    > Sure. Doesn't require starving civilians. Sure, and I don't see credible evidence that they are[0]. Just more of the same false narratives pushed by the all too common antisemitic UN officials[1]. [0] https://unwatch.org/hillel-neuer-on-sky-news-fabricated-u-n-backed-report-on-famine-in-gaza-is-a-complete-fraud/ https://unwatch.org/hillel-neuer-on-sky-news-fabricated-u-n-... [1] https://unwatch.org/legal-analysis-of-un-food-rapporteur-michael-fakhris-2024-report-to-un-general-assembly/ https://unwatch.org/legal-analysis-of-un-food-rapporteur-mic...
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > don't see credible evidence that they are An NGO "Agence France-Presse has described...as 'a lobby group with strong ties to Israel'" [1] is not a credible source for disputing two separate groups at the UN, the IPF and--at this point--more than a few independent investigations. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Watch#cite_note-GazaAFP-5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Watch#cite_note-GazaAFP-5
      - jameshilliard 1y ago
        > An NGO "Agence France-Presse has described...as 'a lobby group with strong ties to Israel'" [1] is not a credible source for disputing two separate groups at the UN, the IPF and--at this point--more than a few independent investigations. This doesn't make the information they are putting out false, the UN bias against Israel is well documented by many sources.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > This doesn't make the information they are putting out false It makes it unreliable. If you’re claiming the IPC is an unreliable source, you need a reliable source to back you up on that. (And neither article actually cites any data that would undermine the IPC’s case.) I’m genuinely open to being convinced. Another comment raised the issue of insufficient CDRs for IPC 5 status, which may or may not be relevant. But these UN Watch interviews are rally the base stuff, not argument.
- GreenWatermelon 1y ago
  What Israel is doing is essentially sowing the seeds for a new crop of leaders hell-bent on destroying Israel. Children who saw ghe carnage Israel is inflicting will grow up to join Hamas and Hezbollah, and the cycle repeats.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > What Israel is doing is essentially sowing the seeds for a new crop of leaders hell-bent on destroying Israel This isn't necessary! Plenty of peoples have overcome cycles of revenge. There isn't something inherent to Israelis and Gazans that requires they metabolise past trauma into future violence.
    - GreenWatermelon 1y ago
      Overcoming this cycle requires the cooperation of both sides, or at the very least that both sides stop fucking with one another. Israel, the stronger entity, should've been the one to abstain first and attempt to understand and forgive, instead they kept building illegal settlements and driving more and more people out there homes. Israel made sure the embers stayed hot, and I can't think of any reason for that aside from hoping those hot embers produce a flame that justifies genocide and completely eradicating the Palestinian population.
  - jameshilliard 1y ago
    > What Israel is doing is essentially sowing the seeds for a new crop of leaders hell-bent on destroying Israel. The current leaders have largely been hell-bent on destroying Israel already...
    - GreenWatermelon 1y ago
      Yes, the current leaders are the result of Natenyahu's previous harvest. There is no shortage of articles on the internet detailing how Israel is the one responsible for propping up Hamas. And the current leaders of Iran are the fruits of what the USA/CIA sowed by toppling a popular democracy and replacing it with a despotic monarchy.