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So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? Wait until the next coordinated attack from Iran, Lebanon, Syria, the West

by YZF 1y ago

So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? Wait until the next coordinated attack from Iran, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza? Israel's enemies want it destroyed- that's what's at stake here. If Hamas had a chance it would keep going and murder all Israelis, not just the ones they managed to before they were repelled. What sort of adaptation are you proposing? I do agree Israel is taking a hit on the world stage. This is part of the war and Israel has a hard time defending itself against enemies with vast resources. Those enemies are also more than happy to distract and splinter the western nations with this topic. Russia has a better standing in the world with its war of aggression on Ukraine amongst many other problems. Most western countries who were/are happy to abandon Israel would (and have) respond with significantly more force to a similar attack on themselves. It remains to be seen what are the longer term consequences here. Not just on Israel. What we have seen throughout this is not criticism. It is hate. It is often directed at Jews, not just at the Israeli government. Not 100% but a large percentage. It's not that Israel's response has no problems - it has many problems. But the discourse on this is not rational and not fact based. The media and the various actors are pushing agenda and ideology. This isn't unique to Israel here, we see this on political issues, a discourse that is tribal, not rational but rather emotional, manipulated by the media (social and otherwise). CNN here is treating Israel basically as it treats Trump and the republicans. CNN is not in the news business, it is in the shaping political opinion business. Would you say the west's response to ISIL/ISIS chopping the heads off a few westerners, a couple of random terrorist attacks in the west, and burning a Jordanian pilot alive would also be characterized as "extreme actions against a weak opponent"? How did CNN cover that conflict? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State - >83k militants killed. - 10's of thousands civilians killed. (IMO vastly underestimated, one source claims 40k killed just in the battle for Mosul: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mosul_(2016%E2%80%932017) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mosul_(2016%E2%80%93... ) - millions displaced.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> what would you do if you're Israel? Let in the food. Flood Gaza with food, actually, so it stops being a recruitment tool for militants.
- tguvot 1y ago
  in this case they divert more desirable goods that they sell and make aid agencies pay protection money for "securing shipments". as example, there was a story on Israeli news a couple of months ago, about some NGO that setup a new aid distribution network. One day they got some of their people killed in Gaza and received a phone call demanding payment "or else"
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > there was a story on Israeli news Was it credible? Who made the phone call?
    - tguvot 1y ago
      story credible. channel 12 news is very solid organization and their investigations resulted in a bunch of criminal cases. essentially ngo established this summer (july/august) new aid distribution network, I think it was at south with it's own drivers, distribution points, etc. during the time when supposedly was impossible to bring aid in gaza, but in reality it was going in. "local interests" in gaza didn't like it, as NGO wasn't paying protection fees so they killed some of people who helped ngo in gaza and made threatening calls to person who runs NGO demanding payments or that this person will be harmed and distribution will be stopped. not sure how it all ended. my guess it was "public" ask from military or security services to get involved in some way
      - dotancohen 1y ago
        If it's the events that I'm thinking of, one of the drivers killed was a Bedouin from the Tarabin family. They literally gathered hundreds of family members to record a cellphone message to the perpetrators, who were mentioned by name. In the video, dozens of illegal weapons - mostly M-16 variants - were paraded and fired in the air. Tarabin is a well-known dangerous and hostile family, the Israeli police don't interfere with them (that's why they have all the illegal weapons). I know of other Bedouins families that have rewards for the heads of other Hamas members.
KumaBear 1y ago
So criticism is hate? I'm Jewish does that mean I am hateful when I am critical of the actions of the Israeli government? Are you claiming none of the critism is legitimate and its all hate? Is criticism of Israel antisemetic? Because last I checked Israel is not a religion.
- QuercusMax 1y ago
  Just like in the US people will call you anti-American if you disagree with the policies of the government.
- YZF 1y ago
  [flagged]
- YZF 1y ago
  My other reply got flagged, please read it. But to add: This specific article is not "criticism". The headline claims Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza. The title, and the article, completely ignores other actors like the government of Gaza (aka Hamas). "How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized" -> is basically a lie. The truth is that Israeli actions contributed to the food situation in the Gaza strip. The cause is obviously the war. The cause of the war is obviously Hamas. The entire article rests solely on a report by a UN organization. The UN is not unbiased. It is openly anti-Israel. The reporting is completely one sided. It is not news. It is agenda. CNN's agenda is anti-Israel. There is no mention of the UN leaving food on the border to rot and not deliver it. There is little to no mention of the UN's refusal to cooperate with Israeli initiatives to distribute food (and generally refuse to cooperate with Israel on anything). At best the authors don't understand the idea that correlation doesn't equal causation. I would say the authors and CNN's goal is simply to attack Israel for political reasons. I think Israel's decision to block aid around the end of February was stupid and a mistake. It is far from clear that decision is a war crime. Israel claims there was plenty of food in Gaza that was delivered during the ceasefire and ofcourse also claims that Hamas has plenty of food in its tunnels. Egypt also at times contributed to the condition in the Gaza strip by blocking aid and preventing refugees from leaving. The actual responsibility for the well being of Palestinian citizens in Palestinian controlled areas (which Gaza city still is) is on their government. That government has a choice to stop the war, it has a choice to distribute the food it controls to its citizens. Ignoring that in any article basically tells us what we need to know. Israel does have responsibilities under international law but is being held to impossible standards that are not applied to any other country. The media intentionally creates an artificial separation between "Hamas" and "Palestinians" where in fact we are talking about combatants and non-combatants of the same non-state or state-like actor (Gaza). Israel is responsible, to the same degree any other country would be, to take steps to allow non-combatants to leave battle areas and to not target them. Israel has asked all non-combatant population to evict the Northern Gaza strip a long time ago. The food situation is worse in that area. So Israel arguably has done what international law requires it to do with respect to non-combatants. Is Israel perfect? no. Is it worse than most western countries? I don't think so, and there's plenty of comparisons we can make. Can we criticize Israel? Definitely! In terms of contribution to antisemitism, there is a large number of people who will read the title as "How Jew actions caused famine in Gaza". That is literally the conversation on some social media. Just because you haven't seen that doesn't change it. This means there should be more sensitivity and better accuracy and context. Being Jewish is also not a religion by the way. It's an ethnicity as well. I'm sure you know this but just to remind others. The Jewish people are also known as Israelites and the word Israel is sometimes used as a synonym for Jewish.
ghuroo1 1y ago
your entire narrative screams “I’m the victim here, please validate my aggressions, abuses and violence”. the state of Israel has not been respectful since day one of it’s inception (violating the defined borders) neither truly wants a two state solution. this outcome is the product of what escalated from that. at least you understand the correlation between a figure like Trump and the state of Israel, that’s exactly on point. it’s ok when one side violates borders and even settles on foreign land but when reactionary action (you’ve helped shape) takes place, you’re now the victim…
- YZF 1y ago
  The state of Israel offered Palestinians a two state solutions multiple times starting at its inception (and it also offered them a one state solution at its inception with them being equal citizens in a free democratic country). Maybe it wasn't the best the Palestinians were looking for but it wasn't unreasonable and it was very close to what everyone (other than the Palestinians) says when they say "two state solution". Where we are today is the result of them rejecting it and instead opting for the "one day we'll send all the Jews back to Europe" solution (despite more than half Israeli Jews being from the middle east and generally no place for Jews to go). This is still their plan today, they say it out loud, you just need to listen. EDIT: I'd also challenge you to tell me why these two states weren't created when Egypt ruled over Gaza and Jordan over the West Bank and Jerusalem up till 1967 (the six day war) when Israel took those areas. Where were all those supporters of the two state solution then? Why didn't they recognize the state of Palestine then over those territories that Israel didn't control?
  - goldenManatee 1y ago
    Before 1948 the Palestinians were peasants living under foreign rule. But at least they were alive. When Zionist interests moved in, backed by English and American militancy to enforce land purchase contracts, the Palestinians were not a centrally organized collective. You cannot “offer” to people who are not organized, and that’s what Israel has exploited. Jews went on a 2,000 year holiday in Europe, then came back and expected they could relive the glory days of a kingdom from over 2,000 years ago. The issue has been the presumption that you can “offer” to people who have occupied the land consistently for thousands of years. Their lack of central government as peasants does not negate their humanity. Except in the Israeli government’s expansionist eyes.
muzani 1y ago
"What we have seen throughout this is not criticism. It is hate. It is often directed at Jews, not just at the Israeli government. Not 100% but a large percentage." This is exactly the blackpill. I live in a Muslim-majority country. Jews and Muslims have been allies since the start of Islamic history. Yes, there was some hate for Jews 20 years ago, but it has been gradually displaced into Zionist hate. The recent analogy is Imperial Japan. The Japanese killed, raped, starved our people. But it was specifically the Imperial Japanese, not the citizens. Firebombing citizens didn't make anything better and it only slowed the process of post-war healing. We have great relationships with Germans and Japanese today despite their past. Moving on is an option. Some of it is because we see the same pattern. Nationalist politics will always say, "Everyone hates you. We are the only ones who will protect you." For the former British territories, it was the playbook. I do believe the only way to break from this cycle is to break this hold. Internally: don't keep genocidal leaders in power. Externally: avoid all this racist shit that gives fascists their power base.
- ghuroo1 1y ago
  well put. but that takes a level of humanism, and effort, abusive leaders don’t have and unfortunately people are too brainwashed to see (and lack the knowledge to understand?).
- YZF 1y ago
  I'm not sure where you get "Jews and Muslims have been allies since the start of Islamic history" and then you pivot to hate for Jews 20 years ago. Antisemitism is alive and kicking. Hate to Jews has not been "displaced into Zionist hate". It's just s/Jews/Zionists/ the hate is the same hate. The blood libels are the same blood libels. The stereotypes the same stereotypes. If you are talking about how Jews have been treated in Muslim countries it ranged between second rate citizens (dhimmi) to outright massacre. Yes, there have been a handful of examples, in a handful of countries, where Jews managed to thrive despite the discrimination but it was the exception that proved the rule. I would love to see Israel's government gone and the Palestinian government of Hamas gone. I'm not seeing any analogy to Japan.
  - 1y ago
toast0 1y ago
> So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? What they're doing doesn't seem to be working, so maybe something else. This is just armchair military philosophizing, but after the October attack, go ahead and do some big disproportionate response stuff for 30-90 days, then a ceasefire and prisoner exchange (this happened). But if the ceasefire doesn't work out, you can't go back to disproportionate response on the October attack; that doesn't look reasonable. Cat and mouse strikes on leadership until the hostages are released (edit: but not while leaders are gathered for peace negotiations!). You can still do proportionate response for any tit-for-tat kind of attacks in the occupied zone. A war of occupation is a PR thing. You need to convince outside observers you're occupation is reasonable --- two years of disproportionate response doesn't do that. You also want to convince the occupied people not to support armed resistance; disproportionate response can work for that, but IMHO not over a long period of time; in the short term, it can get people to demand a stop to fighting, but after two years, again IMHO it just breeds more desire to fight. You also need some sort of plan for after the hostilities end. How do you set the conditions so this is less likely to happen in the future. Really, the best way to have peaceful coexistence between Israel and Palestine as two states is for Israel and Palestine to both be prosperous; Israel needs to help make that happen, because it's in Israel's interests --- even if maybe it doesn't feel like it; a prosperous Palestine will be incentivized to be peaceful because prosperity is tenuous; a destitute Palestine has no need to be peaceful, because it has nothing to lose. There's a lot of talk about ending Hamas; maybe that would do it, but if Hamas disbands today, you need something to replace the government services they provide. What's the plan for that? What would the interim system look like between now and that; can you enforce the interim system now as a way to push Hamas out? Alternately, big problems require big solutions. Forcibly return Gaza to Egyptian control, as it was before the Six Day War, and encourage Egypt to deal with Hamas through diplomacy and response to future attacks from within Gaza as if they were from Egypt. Perhaps return the West Bank to Jordan ... maybe do the return of the West Bank first as a show of 'if y'all give us the hostages, we'll end the occupation' Returning the West Bank is hard, because you've got to figure out what to do with the settlers, which is probably a lot of tricky negotiations over which settlements can be kept with a land swap and which have to be abandoned, so it probably can't be done super fast.
- 1y ago
goldenManatee 1y ago
always with the emotional manipulation, and when that doesn’t work go Samson on people
sporkxrocket 1y ago
I would never be in Israel's position because I don't believe in genocide or land theft, thus would not have created this fake state in the first place.

by YZF 1y ago

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> what would you do if you're Israel? Let in the food. Flood Gaza with food, actually, so it stops being a recruitment tool for militants.

tguvot 1y ago
in this case they divert more desirable goods that they sell and make aid agencies pay protection money for "securing shipments". as example, there was a story on Israeli news a couple of months ago, about some NGO that setup a new aid distribution network. One day they got some of their people killed in Gaza and received a phone call demanding payment "or else"
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > there was a story on Israeli news Was it credible? Who made the phone call?
  - tguvot 1y ago
    story credible. channel 12 news is very solid organization and their investigations resulted in a bunch of criminal cases. essentially ngo established this summer (july/august) new aid distribution network, I think it was at south with it's own drivers, distribution points, etc. during the time when supposedly was impossible to bring aid in gaza, but in reality it was going in. "local interests" in gaza didn't like it, as NGO wasn't paying protection fees so they killed some of people who helped ngo in gaza and made threatening calls to person who runs NGO demanding payments or that this person will be harmed and distribution will be stopped. not sure how it all ended. my guess it was "public" ask from military or security services to get involved in some way
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      If it's the events that I'm thinking of, one of the drivers killed was a Bedouin from the Tarabin family. They literally gathered hundreds of family members to record a cellphone message to the perpetrators, who were mentioned by name. In the video, dozens of illegal weapons - mostly M-16 variants - were paraded and fired in the air. Tarabin is a well-known dangerous and hostile family, the Israeli police don't interfere with them (that's why they have all the illegal weapons). I know of other Bedouins families that have rewards for the heads of other Hamas members.

KumaBear 1y ago

So criticism is hate? I'm Jewish does that mean I am hateful when I am critical of the actions of the Israeli government? Are you claiming none of the critism is legitimate and its all hate? Is criticism of Israel antisemetic? Because last I checked Israel is not a religion.

QuercusMax 1y ago
Just like in the US people will call you anti-American if you disagree with the policies of the government.
YZF 1y ago
[flagged]
YZF 1y ago
My other reply got flagged, please read it. But to add: This specific article is not "criticism". The headline claims Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza. The title, and the article, completely ignores other actors like the government of Gaza (aka Hamas). "How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized" -> is basically a lie. The truth is that Israeli actions contributed to the food situation in the Gaza strip. The cause is obviously the war. The cause of the war is obviously Hamas. The entire article rests solely on a report by a UN organization. The UN is not unbiased. It is openly anti-Israel. The reporting is completely one sided. It is not news. It is agenda. CNN's agenda is anti-Israel. There is no mention of the UN leaving food on the border to rot and not deliver it. There is little to no mention of the UN's refusal to cooperate with Israeli initiatives to distribute food (and generally refuse to cooperate with Israel on anything). At best the authors don't understand the idea that correlation doesn't equal causation. I would say the authors and CNN's goal is simply to attack Israel for political reasons. I think Israel's decision to block aid around the end of February was stupid and a mistake. It is far from clear that decision is a war crime. Israel claims there was plenty of food in Gaza that was delivered during the ceasefire and ofcourse also claims that Hamas has plenty of food in its tunnels. Egypt also at times contributed to the condition in the Gaza strip by blocking aid and preventing refugees from leaving. The actual responsibility for the well being of Palestinian citizens in Palestinian controlled areas (which Gaza city still is) is on their government. That government has a choice to stop the war, it has a choice to distribute the food it controls to its citizens. Ignoring that in any article basically tells us what we need to know. Israel does have responsibilities under international law but is being held to impossible standards that are not applied to any other country. The media intentionally creates an artificial separation between "Hamas" and "Palestinians" where in fact we are talking about combatants and non-combatants of the same non-state or state-like actor (Gaza). Israel is responsible, to the same degree any other country would be, to take steps to allow non-combatants to leave battle areas and to not target them. Israel has asked all non-combatant population to evict the Northern Gaza strip a long time ago. The food situation is worse in that area. So Israel arguably has done what international law requires it to do with respect to non-combatants. Is Israel perfect? no. Is it worse than most western countries? I don't think so, and there's plenty of comparisons we can make. Can we criticize Israel? Definitely! In terms of contribution to antisemitism, there is a large number of people who will read the title as "How Jew actions caused famine in Gaza". That is literally the conversation on some social media. Just because you haven't seen that doesn't change it. This means there should be more sensitivity and better accuracy and context. Being Jewish is also not a religion by the way. It's an ethnicity as well. I'm sure you know this but just to remind others. The Jewish people are also known as Israelites and the word Israel is sometimes used as a synonym for Jewish.

ghuroo1 1y ago

your entire narrative screams “I’m the victim here, please validate my aggressions, abuses and violence”. the state of Israel has not been respectful since day one of it’s inception (violating the defined borders) neither truly wants a two state solution. this outcome is the product of what escalated from that. at least you understand the correlation between a figure like Trump and the state of Israel, that’s exactly on point. it’s ok when one side violates borders and even settles on foreign land but when reactionary action (you’ve helped shape) takes place, you’re now the victim…

YZF 1y ago
The state of Israel offered Palestinians a two state solutions multiple times starting at its inception (and it also offered them a one state solution at its inception with them being equal citizens in a free democratic country). Maybe it wasn't the best the Palestinians were looking for but it wasn't unreasonable and it was very close to what everyone (other than the Palestinians) says when they say "two state solution". Where we are today is the result of them rejecting it and instead opting for the "one day we'll send all the Jews back to Europe" solution (despite more than half Israeli Jews being from the middle east and generally no place for Jews to go). This is still their plan today, they say it out loud, you just need to listen. EDIT: I'd also challenge you to tell me why these two states weren't created when Egypt ruled over Gaza and Jordan over the West Bank and Jerusalem up till 1967 (the six day war) when Israel took those areas. Where were all those supporters of the two state solution then? Why didn't they recognize the state of Palestine then over those territories that Israel didn't control?
- goldenManatee 1y ago
  Before 1948 the Palestinians were peasants living under foreign rule. But at least they were alive. When Zionist interests moved in, backed by English and American militancy to enforce land purchase contracts, the Palestinians were not a centrally organized collective. You cannot “offer” to people who are not organized, and that’s what Israel has exploited. Jews went on a 2,000 year holiday in Europe, then came back and expected they could relive the glory days of a kingdom from over 2,000 years ago. The issue has been the presumption that you can “offer” to people who have occupied the land consistently for thousands of years. Their lack of central government as peasants does not negate their humanity. Except in the Israeli government’s expansionist eyes.

muzani 1y ago

"What we have seen throughout this is not criticism. It is hate. It is often directed at Jews, not just at the Israeli government. Not 100% but a large percentage." This is exactly the blackpill. I live in a Muslim-majority country. Jews and Muslims have been allies since the start of Islamic history. Yes, there was some hate for Jews 20 years ago, but it has been gradually displaced into Zionist hate. The recent analogy is Imperial Japan. The Japanese killed, raped, starved our people. But it was specifically the Imperial Japanese, not the citizens. Firebombing citizens didn't make anything better and it only slowed the process of post-war healing. We have great relationships with Germans and Japanese today despite their past. Moving on is an option. Some of it is because we see the same pattern. Nationalist politics will always say, "Everyone hates you. We are the only ones who will protect you." For the former British territories, it was the playbook. I do believe the only way to break from this cycle is to break this hold. Internally: don't keep genocidal leaders in power. Externally: avoid all this racist shit that gives fascists their power base.

ghuroo1 1y ago
well put. but that takes a level of humanism, and effort, abusive leaders don’t have and unfortunately people are too brainwashed to see (and lack the knowledge to understand?).
YZF 1y ago
I'm not sure where you get "Jews and Muslims have been allies since the start of Islamic history" and then you pivot to hate for Jews 20 years ago. Antisemitism is alive and kicking. Hate to Jews has not been "displaced into Zionist hate". It's just s/Jews/Zionists/ the hate is the same hate. The blood libels are the same blood libels. The stereotypes the same stereotypes. If you are talking about how Jews have been treated in Muslim countries it ranged between second rate citizens (dhimmi) to outright massacre. Yes, there have been a handful of examples, in a handful of countries, where Jews managed to thrive despite the discrimination but it was the exception that proved the rule. I would love to see Israel's government gone and the Palestinian government of Hamas gone. I'm not seeing any analogy to Japan.
- 1y ago

toast0 1y ago

> So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? What they're doing doesn't seem to be working, so maybe something else. This is just armchair military philosophizing, but after the October attack, go ahead and do some big disproportionate response stuff for 30-90 days, then a ceasefire and prisoner exchange (this happened). But if the ceasefire doesn't work out, you can't go back to disproportionate response on the October attack; that doesn't look reasonable. Cat and mouse strikes on leadership until the hostages are released (edit: but not while leaders are gathered for peace negotiations!). You can still do proportionate response for any tit-for-tat kind of attacks in the occupied zone. A war of occupation is a PR thing. You need to convince outside observers you're occupation is reasonable --- two years of disproportionate response doesn't do that. You also want to convince the occupied people not to support armed resistance; disproportionate response can work for that, but IMHO not over a long period of time; in the short term, it can get people to demand a stop to fighting, but after two years, again IMHO it just breeds more desire to fight. You also need some sort of plan for after the hostilities end. How do you set the conditions so this is less likely to happen in the future. Really, the best way to have peaceful coexistence between Israel and Palestine as two states is for Israel and Palestine to both be prosperous; Israel needs to help make that happen, because it's in Israel's interests --- even if maybe it doesn't feel like it; a prosperous Palestine will be incentivized to be peaceful because prosperity is tenuous; a destitute Palestine has no need to be peaceful, because it has nothing to lose. There's a lot of talk about ending Hamas; maybe that would do it, but if Hamas disbands today, you need something to replace the government services they provide. What's the plan for that? What would the interim system look like between now and that; can you enforce the interim system now as a way to push Hamas out? Alternately, big problems require big solutions. Forcibly return Gaza to Egyptian control, as it was before the Six Day War, and encourage Egypt to deal with Hamas through diplomacy and response to future attacks from within Gaza as if they were from Egypt. Perhaps return the West Bank to Jordan ... maybe do the return of the West Bank first as a show of 'if y'all give us the hostages, we'll end the occupation' Returning the West Bank is hard, because you've got to figure out what to do with the settlers, which is probably a lot of tricky negotiations over which settlements can be kept with a land swap and which have to be abandoned, so it probably can't be done super fast.

1y ago

goldenManatee 1y ago

always with the emotional manipulation, and when that doesn’t work go Samson on people

sporkxrocket 1y ago

I would never be in Israel's position because I don't believe in genocide or land theft, thus would not have created this fake state in the first place.