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It’s borderline bigoted to force your values onto a completely different population that’s Islamist, tribal and radicalized. After Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza
by flyinglizard 1y ago
It’s borderline bigoted to force your values onto a completely different population that’s Islamist, tribal and radicalized. After Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza people thought it would be a good idea to hold elections there. Hamas, the Palestinian equivalent of ISIS, won. There haven’t been elections since. In the West Bank, no PA elections since 2005 because the PLO feared Hamas would win there too.
So what democracy are you talking about?
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> Hamas, the Palestinian equivalent of ISIS, won. There haven’t been elections since To be fair, we tried to depose them. That tends to make one paranoid. That doesn't make Hamas's despotism and terrorism our fault. But it's also unfair to use that as an example for why democracy can't work in Gaza.
- tguvot 1y agohamas killed or tortured into submission all opposition in gaza. palestinian authority stopped having elections as well. because hamas will win. latest polling (in link that i sent you in other thread) shows hamas polling at 40+%
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> latest polling (in link that i sent you in other thread) shows hamas polling at 40+% Not a majority? Also, can you provide the link? Super curious about polling methods in a war zone.
- tguvot 1y agogot mistaken with previous polls. hamas not 40+ but 30+. 10 points higher than fatah and in case those that don't know who they vote for, won't vote - i guess hamas gets majority. But PA promised to France/UK/Canada/Australia that Hamas wouldn't be allowed to participate in elections, so... https://pcpsr.org/en/node/997 https://pcpsr.org/en/node/997 they have people that interview people in gaza (mentioned on front page)
- JumpCrisscross 1y agoThank you. I don't have a sense for the credibility of the poll. But taking their numbers at face value, we have 58% of Gaza residents saying Hamas was incorrect to launch its 7 October offensive. (Surprisingly, 59% in the West Bank say it was correct. That's problematic.) Problematically, too, is the 2/3rds of respondents in Gaza who oppose Hamas disarming. Based on this survey, which again, I have zero ability to judge in terms of accuracy, there would need to be a long civic transition to democratic self-rule while new political parties are given a safe space to form and grow.
- tguvot 1y agowest bank population more radical because they don't feel the consequences of the hamas actions in gaza how long civic transition given those: https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Education-Textbooks-and-Terror-Nov-2023.pdf https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Education... https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2023-Palestinian-Matriculation-Exams.pdf https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Review-of-2023-... https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Gazas-Educational-Frameworks.pdf https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/Gazas-Education...
- dotancohen 1y ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> name all the democratic states which have Arab culture This is a genuine pro-Israeli argument. It’s not a valid anti-Arab one. How many extraction-economy former colonies have successfully democratised? (Extraction being the sole or overwhelming economic sector.) Because that’s the common link between e.g. Central Asia and the Arab world.
- dotancohen 1y agoI'm not anti-Arab. I'm pro-Israel. I actually speak Arabic (and Hebrew) and I speak regularly with people in the Gaza strip and in the West Bank.
- JumpCrisscross 1y agoSorry, I meant to just characterise the argument, not its speaker. The absence of Arab democracies doesn't have a well-established predictive mechanism that would allow us to predict a Gazan democracy should fail. It does highlight a unique aspect of Israel in its region.
- dotancohen 1y agoFor rule of the people (democracy) to work, certain base values and education are necessary. I implore you to research this, it is discussed often by both Arabs (who understand Arab culture) and Westerner scholars (who do not).
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> certain base values and education are necessary. I implore you to research this This is an empty comment without any citations.