7 ms·

A bi-national state will differ in anthem, in symbols, in government, in military, in beliefs and in values. What of Israel would remain?

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
wredcoll 1y ago
The same part of israel that is similar to the one from 2000 years ago.
lern_too_spel 1y ago
A democracy. A government supported by the people it governs is the primary factor in determining whether a state is legitimate.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > A government supported by the people it governs is the primary factor in determining whether a state is legitimate Not really seeing who in the region would want to support that narrative.
  - 8note 1y ago
    the new syrian government is trying to sell that narrative. see this recent conversation at the CFR: https://youtu.be/-CGM6aSontQ?si=CzIWJuZiCb7XRXL- https://youtu.be/-CGM6aSontQ?si=CzIWJuZiCb7XRXL-
- flyinglizard 1y ago
  It’s borderline bigoted to force your values onto a completely different population that’s Islamist, tribal and radicalized. After Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza people thought it would be a good idea to hold elections there. Hamas, the Palestinian equivalent of ISIS, won. There haven’t been elections since. In the West Bank, no PA elections since 2005 because the PLO feared Hamas would win there too. So what democracy are you talking about?
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Hamas, the Palestinian equivalent of ISIS, won. There haven’t been elections since To be fair, we tried to depose them. That tends to make one paranoid. That doesn't make Hamas's despotism and terrorism our fault. But it's also unfair to use that as an example for why democracy can't work in Gaza.
    - tguvot 1y ago
      hamas killed or tortured into submission all opposition in gaza. palestinian authority stopped having elections as well. because hamas will win. latest polling (in link that i sent you in other thread) shows hamas polling at 40+%
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > latest polling (in link that i sent you in other thread) shows hamas polling at 40+% Not a majority? Also, can you provide the link? Super curious about polling methods in a war zone.
        tguvot 1y ago
        got mistaken with previous polls. hamas not 40+ but 30+. 10 points higher than fatah and in case those that don't know who they vote for, won't vote - i guess hamas gets majority. But PA promised to France/UK/Canada/Australia that Hamas wouldn't be allowed to participate in elections, so... https://pcpsr.org/en/node/997 https://pcpsr.org/en/node/997 they have people that interview people in gaza (mentioned on front page)
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        Thank you. I don't have a sense for the credibility of the poll. But taking their numbers at face value, we have 58% of Gaza residents saying Hamas was incorrect to launch its 7 October offensive. (Surprisingly, 59% in the West Bank say it was correct. That's problematic.) Problematically, too, is the 2/3rds of respondents in Gaza who oppose Hamas disarming. Based on this survey, which again, I have zero ability to judge in terms of accuracy, there would need to be a long civic transition to democratic self-rule while new political parties are given a safe space to form and grow.
fatbird 1y ago
Is Israel so perfect today that it should be frozen in amber and never allowed to become something different?

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

wredcoll 1y ago

The same part of israel that is similar to the one from 2000 years ago.

lern_too_spel 1y ago

A democracy. A government supported by the people it governs is the primary factor in determining whether a state is legitimate.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> A government supported by the people it governs is the primary factor in determining whether a state is legitimate Not really seeing who in the region would want to support that narrative.
- 8note 1y ago
  the new syrian government is trying to sell that narrative. see this recent conversation at the CFR: https://youtu.be/-CGM6aSontQ?si=CzIWJuZiCb7XRXL- https://youtu.be/-CGM6aSontQ?si=CzIWJuZiCb7XRXL-
flyinglizard 1y ago
It’s borderline bigoted to force your values onto a completely different population that’s Islamist, tribal and radicalized. After Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza people thought it would be a good idea to hold elections there. Hamas, the Palestinian equivalent of ISIS, won. There haven’t been elections since. In the West Bank, no PA elections since 2005 because the PLO feared Hamas would win there too. So what democracy are you talking about?
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Hamas, the Palestinian equivalent of ISIS, won. There haven’t been elections since To be fair, we tried to depose them. That tends to make one paranoid. That doesn't make Hamas's despotism and terrorism our fault. But it's also unfair to use that as an example for why democracy can't work in Gaza.
  - tguvot 1y ago
    hamas killed or tortured into submission all opposition in gaza. palestinian authority stopped having elections as well. because hamas will win. latest polling (in link that i sent you in other thread) shows hamas polling at 40+%
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > latest polling (in link that i sent you in other thread) shows hamas polling at 40+% Not a majority? Also, can you provide the link? Super curious about polling methods in a war zone.
      - tguvot 1y ago
        got mistaken with previous polls. hamas not 40+ but 30+. 10 points higher than fatah and in case those that don't know who they vote for, won't vote - i guess hamas gets majority. But PA promised to France/UK/Canada/Australia that Hamas wouldn't be allowed to participate in elections, so... https://pcpsr.org/en/node/997 https://pcpsr.org/en/node/997 they have people that interview people in gaza (mentioned on front page)
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        Thank you. I don't have a sense for the credibility of the poll. But taking their numbers at face value, we have 58% of Gaza residents saying Hamas was incorrect to launch its 7 October offensive. (Surprisingly, 59% in the West Bank say it was correct. That's problematic.) Problematically, too, is the 2/3rds of respondents in Gaza who oppose Hamas disarming. Based on this survey, which again, I have zero ability to judge in terms of accuracy, there would need to be a long civic transition to democratic self-rule while new political parties are given a safe space to form and grow.

fatbird 1y ago

Is Israel so perfect today that it should be frozen in amber and never allowed to become something different?