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> Hamas started the war. Israel has continued it way past where it made sense. The war will continue to make sense until the hostages are returned. When Hamas

> Hamas started the war. Israel has continued it way past where it made sense. The war will continue to make sense until the hostages are returned. When Hamas believes that the war no longer makes sense, then they are invited to return the hostages and the war will end.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> war will continue to make sense until the hostages are returned Not really. Hamas should unilaterally return the hostages. They're not getting any negotiating points by keeping them. But Israel prosecuting the war as it has is permanently debilitating its long-term security and economic prospects. (Its zenith was probably after its Iranian bombing campaign. Tel Aviv should have withdrawn then and fallen back to targeted bombings of Hamas leadership.)
- SilverElfin 1y ago
  > But Israel prosecuting the war as it has is permanently debilitating its long-term security and economic prospects. If the economic prospects are being debilitated, it is only because people are actually believing in the narrative that Hamas has hoped they’d be manipulated into believing, through a sustained campaign of disruptive rioting and propaganda - all while trying to not talk about the decades-long rocket attacks, the murder/rape of October 7, etc. But it’s silly for the world to fall for this narrative when it is clear who the aggressors are. Only one of these parties fundamentally believes in genocide of the other party - and that’s Hamas, per their own statements about their goals. As for the long-term security - this I am not clear on. Why do you think Israel’s security has been reduced? I think it will be very hard for Hamas to regroup quickly to the extent that it has been built up previously (especially thanks to Qatar’s help). But if left alone rather than stamped out, I think eventually they will build up strength and in 20 years we’ll have the next October 7. I think Israel’s only choice is to put a definitive end to Islamic terrorism.
bigyabai 1y ago
Which hostages? Israel still detains several thousand Palestinians in violation of international law. There are no plans to release them or give them a fair trial, that I'm aware of.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  Which international law is Administrative Detention a violation of? Are you aware that Egypt holds 16,000 to 20,000 people under administrative detention. A similar number is found in Japan. I can't find numbers for Australia, but I think it's number is also over 10,000. The highest number that I could find for Israel is 3000. For what it's worth, a guy I'm friendly with (not a friend per se, but we've exchanged phone numbers and talk on the phone) had his son in administrative detention for several weeks. Probably more than a month. There was no "plan" to let him go, the police released him when it was deemed that the circumstances of his arrest did not merit further procedure.
  - ta20240528 1y ago
    > Which international law is Administrative Detention a violation of Article 9 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile." But you knew this: it just didn't suit whatever defense of Israel you were trying to make.
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      I'm not actually defending Israel. I'm demonstrating that the practice is not only widespread among nations that the West generally agrees with (Japan, Australia), it is practiced more there than here. And our neighbours here (Egypt) as well. So arguing against Israel on this subject does not put Israel at a moral disadvantage here. In any case, at least in Israel, the vast, vast majority of those under administrative detention are held for violent acts such as throwing stones, molotov cocktails, etc. There are a few cases in which the authorities have not stated reason, I know this, but that number is in the single digits. Administrative detention is not a violation of Article 9. I'm not excusing it, I'm putting it in perspective. For what it's worth, I personally am against the whole idea of administrative detention in any country. If a government body detains someone, the reason should be clear and transparent before the arresting officer punches out of his shift. And your equivalence of administrative detention to the taking of babies hostage and murdering them and their mothers in captivity only reinforces the notion that those who oppose the state of Israel are generally unreasonable and lack the morals which form the basis of a stable, productive Western society.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> war will continue to make sense until the hostages are returned Not really. Hamas should unilaterally return the hostages. They're not getting any negotiating points by keeping them. But Israel prosecuting the war as it has is permanently debilitating its long-term security and economic prospects. (Its zenith was probably after its Iranian bombing campaign. Tel Aviv should have withdrawn then and fallen back to targeted bombings of Hamas leadership.)

SilverElfin 1y ago
> But Israel prosecuting the war as it has is permanently debilitating its long-term security and economic prospects. If the economic prospects are being debilitated, it is only because people are actually believing in the narrative that Hamas has hoped they’d be manipulated into believing, through a sustained campaign of disruptive rioting and propaganda - all while trying to not talk about the decades-long rocket attacks, the murder/rape of October 7, etc. But it’s silly for the world to fall for this narrative when it is clear who the aggressors are. Only one of these parties fundamentally believes in genocide of the other party - and that’s Hamas, per their own statements about their goals. As for the long-term security - this I am not clear on. Why do you think Israel’s security has been reduced? I think it will be very hard for Hamas to regroup quickly to the extent that it has been built up previously (especially thanks to Qatar’s help). But if left alone rather than stamped out, I think eventually they will build up strength and in 20 years we’ll have the next October 7. I think Israel’s only choice is to put a definitive end to Islamic terrorism.

bigyabai 1y ago

Which hostages? Israel still detains several thousand Palestinians in violation of international law. There are no plans to release them or give them a fair trial, that I'm aware of.

dotancohen 1y ago
Which international law is Administrative Detention a violation of? Are you aware that Egypt holds 16,000 to 20,000 people under administrative detention. A similar number is found in Japan. I can't find numbers for Australia, but I think it's number is also over 10,000. The highest number that I could find for Israel is 3000. For what it's worth, a guy I'm friendly with (not a friend per se, but we've exchanged phone numbers and talk on the phone) had his son in administrative detention for several weeks. Probably more than a month. There was no "plan" to let him go, the police released him when it was deemed that the circumstances of his arrest did not merit further procedure.
- ta20240528 1y ago
  > Which international law is Administrative Detention a violation of Article 9 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile." But you knew this: it just didn't suit whatever defense of Israel you were trying to make.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    I'm not actually defending Israel. I'm demonstrating that the practice is not only widespread among nations that the West generally agrees with (Japan, Australia), it is practiced more there than here. And our neighbours here (Egypt) as well. So arguing against Israel on this subject does not put Israel at a moral disadvantage here. In any case, at least in Israel, the vast, vast majority of those under administrative detention are held for violent acts such as throwing stones, molotov cocktails, etc. There are a few cases in which the authorities have not stated reason, I know this, but that number is in the single digits. Administrative detention is not a violation of Article 9. I'm not excusing it, I'm putting it in perspective. For what it's worth, I personally am against the whole idea of administrative detention in any country. If a government body detains someone, the reason should be clear and transparent before the arresting officer punches out of his shift. And your equivalence of administrative detention to the taking of babies hostage and murdering them and their mothers in captivity only reinforces the notion that those who oppose the state of Israel are generally unreasonable and lack the morals which form the basis of a stable, productive Western society.