6 ms·

The man speaking is Ayman Odeh [1], an Arab Israeli MK and chairman of Hadash, a left-wing Arab Israeli party. Arab Israelis and their political leaders are mar

The man speaking is Ayman Odeh [1], an Arab Israeli MK and chairman of Hadash, a left-wing Arab Israeli party. Arab Israelis and their political leaders are marginalized in Israeli society. Arab Israeli parties are largely considered illegitimate by a majority of Jewish Israelis. Political opposition to the starvation of Gaza is still marginal, especially in Jewish society. Protests in Arab cities against the starvation and the genocide are being curbed and prevented by the police. the Jewish majority is still largely silent on these issues, if not outright supportive of the government policy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_Odeh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_Odeh

flyinglizard 1y ago
Just to be fair, Israel itself is considered illegitimate by those parties. I doubt most democracies would let parties that are staunchly anti-state run, but Israel, for some reason, does.
- monocasa 1y ago
  Hadash is not an anti-state party. For instance it explicitly supports a two state solution.
  - flyinglizard 1y ago
    Hadash is a communist party, first and foremost. But the Arab parties - Balad, Raam, Taal - they are advocating for Palestinian "right of return" and turning Israel into a bi-national state, therefore ending what we know as Israel today.
    - monocasa 1y ago
      Being against Israel's status as an ethnostate is hardly "anti-state".
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Being against Israel's status as an ethnostate is hardly "anti-state" But it is tantamount to the destruction of Israel.
        TimorousBestie 1y ago
        How so? There are so many multinational states in the world that manage to exist, somehow.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > there are so many multinational states in the world that manage to exist Not many with that sort of history. It's barely working in the EU, and that's because America took away the toys for a while.
        TimorousBestie 1y ago
        You don’t seem to be a particularly reliable narrator of history in this thread, so I’ll take your uncited assertions with a grain of salt.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        Not a real argument, but I don't think I can come up with a real argument for your case, so fair enough. Show me a single case where previously-warring nations peacefully unified (i.e. not through conquest or subjugation)? Poland-Lithuania and England-Scotland are the only two I can think of. Because the counterexample--multiethnic nations that split along national-identity lines--is far more frequent since the age of conquest. Former Yugoslavia. Pre-Partition India. Sudan. Ethiopia. Algeria. Multiethnicisim is hard. Where it works, it happened through immigration. Combining previously-warring nations under one roof is basically just assisted civil war.
        cyberax 1y ago
        Mostly the ones where multinationality has been reduced to a different set of cuisines. If you look around the Middle East region, then every multiethnic state there has had civil wars recently.
    - fatbird 1y ago
      "Israel should be different" is not the same as "Israel shouldn't exist". Calling them anti-state is nonsense.
      - flyinglizard 1y ago
        A bi-national state will differ in anthem, in symbols, in government, in military, in beliefs and in values. What of Israel would remain?
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        wredcoll 1y ago
        The same part of israel that is similar to the one from 2000 years ago.
        lern_too_spel 1y ago
        A democracy. A government supported by the people it governs is the primary factor in determining whether a state is legitimate.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > A government supported by the people it governs is the primary factor in determining whether a state is legitimate Not really seeing who in the region would want to support that narrative.
        8note 1y ago
        the new syrian government is trying to sell that narrative. see this recent conversation at the CFR: https://youtu.be/-CGM6aSontQ?si=CzIWJuZiCb7XRXL- https://youtu.be/-CGM6aSontQ?si=CzIWJuZiCb7XRXL-
        flyinglizard 1y ago
        It’s borderline bigoted to force your values onto a completely different population that’s Islamist, tribal and radicalized. After Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza people thought it would be a good idea to hold elections there. Hamas, the Palestinian equivalent of ISIS, won. There haven’t been elections since. In the West Bank, no PA elections since 2005 because the PLO feared Hamas would win there too. So what democracy are you talking about?
    - zelphirkalt 1y ago
      Seeing that Israel has done very little good around itself ever, maybe changing the character of it would be a good thing. It's not working well.
- fakedang 1y ago
  They are not parties considering Israel illegitimate nor are they calling for the destruction of Israel. They are parties calling for a two-state solution, and consider the globally-recognized-as-illegal settlements as illegitimate i.e. they call the ever expanding borders of Israel as illegitimate. If you were to make them illegal, you're basically legally disenfranchising 25% of Israel's population.
- fatbird 1y ago
  Canada has a federal party since 1991, the Bloc Québécois, "devoted to Quebecois nationalism, social democracy, and the promotion of Quebecois sovereignty."[0] They're explicitly separatist by policy. Quebec's last attempt at attaining sovereignty was a provincial referendum in 1995 that lost by 0.5%. Had it succeeded, the provincial gov't was prepared to declare full independence the next day. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloc_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloc_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois
  - munk-a 1y ago
    As a Canadian I'd also say that having such a party is a huge boon to the country. Separatists are going to separatist - your choice, as a nation, is whether to allow them to organize and have their voices heard within the system of politics or whether to force them to resort to violence and underground organization. Those underground separatist groups will always exist but giving formal political representation to the desire for separation (even if it isn't granted) can help defuse extremism and provide better methods for airing grievances. The modern BQ is much more tame than the BQ of thirty years prior - they've mainly morphed into a party focused on franophone rights within Canada and the maintenance of QC labor rights. So while they specifically no longer represent that separatist movement as directly there are other groups focused on prairie separatism that are a better modern parallel.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- jondea 1y ago
  Do any of the Scottish National Party, Plaid Cymru or Sinn Féin count? I have no doubt there are similar elsewhere...
TacticalCoder 1y ago
[dead]
zelphirkalt 1y ago
Israel is where we in the west get shown a mirror in front of our faces. A country led by religious fanatics, who don't respect other religions and for the most part feel no remorse when people of other faith suffer due to their actions or inaction. A genocidal military, that continues its deeds, seemingly aiming to reach ISIS level of despicability. But we have tons of people here, who don't want to see anything wrong with Israel and how it acts. That really shows us our double standards. Religious fanatics are OK for us, as long as they are not against us. Crimes against humanity are OK, as long as they are inflicted upon a group, that is not seen by the mainstream as "us". We have really lost the plot when it comes to ethics. Not all of us, but many, and especially in our leaderships and governments.

flyinglizard 1y ago

Just to be fair, Israel itself is considered illegitimate by those parties. I doubt most democracies would let parties that are staunchly anti-state run, but Israel, for some reason, does.

monocasa 1y ago
Hadash is not an anti-state party. For instance it explicitly supports a two state solution.
- flyinglizard 1y ago
  Hadash is a communist party, first and foremost. But the Arab parties - Balad, Raam, Taal - they are advocating for Palestinian "right of return" and turning Israel into a bi-national state, therefore ending what we know as Israel today.
  - monocasa 1y ago
    Being against Israel's status as an ethnostate is hardly "anti-state".
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Being against Israel's status as an ethnostate is hardly "anti-state" But it is tantamount to the destruction of Israel.
      - TimorousBestie 1y ago
        How so? There are so many multinational states in the world that manage to exist, somehow.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > there are so many multinational states in the world that manage to exist Not many with that sort of history. It's barely working in the EU, and that's because America took away the toys for a while.
        TimorousBestie 1y ago
        You don’t seem to be a particularly reliable narrator of history in this thread, so I’ll take your uncited assertions with a grain of salt.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        Not a real argument, but I don't think I can come up with a real argument for your case, so fair enough. Show me a single case where previously-warring nations peacefully unified (i.e. not through conquest or subjugation)? Poland-Lithuania and England-Scotland are the only two I can think of. Because the counterexample--multiethnic nations that split along national-identity lines--is far more frequent since the age of conquest. Former Yugoslavia. Pre-Partition India. Sudan. Ethiopia. Algeria. Multiethnicisim is hard. Where it works, it happened through immigration. Combining previously-warring nations under one roof is basically just assisted civil war.
        cyberax 1y ago
        Mostly the ones where multinationality has been reduced to a different set of cuisines. If you look around the Middle East region, then every multiethnic state there has had civil wars recently.
  - fatbird 1y ago
    "Israel should be different" is not the same as "Israel shouldn't exist". Calling them anti-state is nonsense.
    - flyinglizard 1y ago
      A bi-national state will differ in anthem, in symbols, in government, in military, in beliefs and in values. What of Israel would remain?
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - wredcoll 1y ago
        The same part of israel that is similar to the one from 2000 years ago.
      - lern_too_spel 1y ago
        A democracy. A government supported by the people it governs is the primary factor in determining whether a state is legitimate.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > A government supported by the people it governs is the primary factor in determining whether a state is legitimate Not really seeing who in the region would want to support that narrative.
        8note 1y ago
        the new syrian government is trying to sell that narrative. see this recent conversation at the CFR: https://youtu.be/-CGM6aSontQ?si=CzIWJuZiCb7XRXL- https://youtu.be/-CGM6aSontQ?si=CzIWJuZiCb7XRXL-
        flyinglizard 1y ago
        It’s borderline bigoted to force your values onto a completely different population that’s Islamist, tribal and radicalized. After Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza people thought it would be a good idea to hold elections there. Hamas, the Palestinian equivalent of ISIS, won. There haven’t been elections since. In the West Bank, no PA elections since 2005 because the PLO feared Hamas would win there too. So what democracy are you talking about?
  - zelphirkalt 1y ago
    Seeing that Israel has done very little good around itself ever, maybe changing the character of it would be a good thing. It's not working well.
fakedang 1y ago
They are not parties considering Israel illegitimate nor are they calling for the destruction of Israel. They are parties calling for a two-state solution, and consider the globally-recognized-as-illegal settlements as illegitimate i.e. they call the ever expanding borders of Israel as illegitimate. If you were to make them illegal, you're basically legally disenfranchising 25% of Israel's population.
fatbird 1y ago
Canada has a federal party since 1991, the Bloc Québécois, "devoted to Quebecois nationalism, social democracy, and the promotion of Quebecois sovereignty."[0] They're explicitly separatist by policy. Quebec's last attempt at attaining sovereignty was a provincial referendum in 1995 that lost by 0.5%. Had it succeeded, the provincial gov't was prepared to declare full independence the next day. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloc_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloc_Qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois
- munk-a 1y ago
  As a Canadian I'd also say that having such a party is a huge boon to the country. Separatists are going to separatist - your choice, as a nation, is whether to allow them to organize and have their voices heard within the system of politics or whether to force them to resort to violence and underground organization. Those underground separatist groups will always exist but giving formal political representation to the desire for separation (even if it isn't granted) can help defuse extremism and provide better methods for airing grievances. The modern BQ is much more tame than the BQ of thirty years prior - they've mainly morphed into a party focused on franophone rights within Canada and the maintenance of QC labor rights. So while they specifically no longer represent that separatist movement as directly there are other groups focused on prairie separatism that are a better modern parallel.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
jondea 1y ago
Do any of the Scottish National Party, Plaid Cymru or Sinn Féin count? I have no doubt there are similar elsewhere...

TacticalCoder 1y ago

[dead]

zelphirkalt 1y ago

Israel is where we in the west get shown a mirror in front of our faces. A country led by religious fanatics, who don't respect other religions and for the most part feel no remorse when people of other faith suffer due to their actions or inaction. A genocidal military, that continues its deeds, seemingly aiming to reach ISIS level of despicability. But we have tons of people here, who don't want to see anything wrong with Israel and how it acts. That really shows us our double standards. Religious fanatics are OK for us, as long as they are not against us. Crimes against humanity are OK, as long as they are inflicted upon a group, that is not seen by the mainstream as "us". We have really lost the plot when it comes to ethics. Not all of us, but many, and especially in our leaderships and governments.