5 ms·

Oh, a scientist. What do they know? I thought we don’t listen to these people anymore. In what reality would we be living if we listened to knowledgeable peopl

by bhaak 1y ago

Oh, a scientist. What do they know? I thought we don’t listen to these people anymore. In what reality would we be living if we listened to knowledgeable people?

Der_Einzige 1y ago
Technocracies have a pretty bad record unironically. Places which let lawyers run society do better than places which let engineers run it. Edit, since I can't make a post right now since HN thinks I've posted too much, here's some examples of technoracies: "The former government of the Soviet Union has been referred to as a technocracy.[20] Soviet leaders like Leonid Brezhnev often had a technical background. In 1986, 89% of Politburo members were engineers.[20] " "Many previous leaders of the Chinese Communist Party had backgrounds in engineering and practical sciences. According to surveys of municipal governments of cities with a population of 1 million or more in China, it has been found that over 80% of government personnel had a technical education" "Since the 1990s, Italy has had several such governments (in Italian, governo tecnico) in times of economic or political crisis,[27][28] including the formation in which economist Mario Monti presided over a cabinet of unelected professionals." "The term 'technocratic' has been applied to governments where a cabinet of elected professional politicians is led by an unelected prime minister, such as in the cases of the 2011-2012 Greek government led by economist Lucas Papademos and the Czech Republic's 2009–2010 caretaker government presided over by the state's chief statistician, Jan Fischer.[3][31] In December 2013, in the framework of the national dialogue facilitated by the Tunisian National Dialogue Quartet, political parties in Tunisia agreed to install a technocratic government led by Mehdi Jomaa." "The Syrian Salvation Government, the predecessor to the Syrian transitional government,[33] was characterized by observers as an authoritarian technocracy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy
- justinrubek 1y ago
  Can you provide examples of such a place? From my perspective, I find it difficult to believe that this has ever been attempted at a scale that is sufficient to come to that conclusion. I'd love to hear otherwise.
  - jajuuka 1y ago
    I feel like they are coming with the same energy as "socialism never works and always fails....because we make it fail."
  - 9rx 1y ago
    A "true" technocracy has never been, but China has exhibited the only "almost" example during the late 20th century. That was the period when they transformed from a sustenance-farming backwater to a powerhouse on the world stage. Of course, it is always easy for a backwater to play catchup after someone else has already figured out how to advance. It is difficult to attribute that success to technocracy, and it is likely that any system could have allowed the same forward momentum, but the correlated track record is quite good regardless. The USA flirted with the idea of technocracy around the time of the Great Depression. That is, perhaps, where the "bad record" idea has come from, but that's a pretty big leap.
- breppp 1y ago
  In my experience organizations ruled by lawyers are ruled by inertia. You can delegate any question to a lawyer who will advise you to not do anything
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    If they’re being delegated decision making they are, by definition, not running things.
    - breppp 1y ago
      As in, "running things" by being the last decider, the class with the most power in the system, etc Just as the king of england is the head of state yet not the source of power
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Just as the king of england is the head of state yet not the source of power The king of England doesn’t run Britain in any sense. American oligarchs exercise more political power than he does.
        breppp 1y ago
        The king of england ran england while his (the institution) power eroded until he started working for the british parliament/government the point being, official institutions are not always the strongest in the state, a state can be practically ruled by lawyers while having a functioning government
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > king of england ran england while his (the institution) power eroded until he started working for the british parliament/government So by “running things” you mean person whose ancestors ran things. Q. E. D. Your top comment does not describe “organizations ruled by lawyers.”
- owenpalmer 1y ago
  > Places which let lawyers run society do better than places which let engineers run it. Can you provide any examples?
- mullingitover 1y ago
  Weird to throw China in there as an example of a failed technocracy. They’re currently performing so well that it’s considered a massive problem. They’re not perfect, but frankly they humiliate the US in a lot of areas because the US system is too sclerotic to adapt and improve.
- advisedwang 1y ago
  The problem with technocracies is that government faces choices that aren't a question that can be answered by some neutral evaluation but are instead questions of whose interests are prioritized or what values are enforced. However there ARE questions that can be neutrally evaluated, or at least where neutral evaluation can narrow the field of reasonable decisions. Medical policy is replete with decisions like this, and so we really should be consulting experts and strongly listening to their decisions in this field.
kristianp 1y ago
Lol, we have to live in this reality for at least another 3 years.

by bhaak 1y ago

Oh, a scientist. What do they know? I thought we don’t listen to these people anymore. In what reality would we be living if we listened to knowledgeable people?

Der_Einzige 1y ago

Technocracies have a pretty bad record unironically. Places which let lawyers run society do better than places which let engineers run it. Edit, since I can't make a post right now since HN thinks I've posted too much, here's some examples of technoracies: "The former government of the Soviet Union has been referred to as a technocracy.[20] Soviet leaders like Leonid Brezhnev often had a technical background. In 1986, 89% of Politburo members were engineers.[20] " "Many previous leaders of the Chinese Communist Party had backgrounds in engineering and practical sciences. According to surveys of municipal governments of cities with a population of 1 million or more in China, it has been found that over 80% of government personnel had a technical education" "Since the 1990s, Italy has had several such governments (in Italian, governo tecnico) in times of economic or political crisis,[27][28] including the formation in which economist Mario Monti presided over a cabinet of unelected professionals." "The term 'technocratic' has been applied to governments where a cabinet of elected professional politicians is led by an unelected prime minister, such as in the cases of the 2011-2012 Greek government led by economist Lucas Papademos and the Czech Republic's 2009–2010 caretaker government presided over by the state's chief statistician, Jan Fischer.[3][31] In December 2013, in the framework of the national dialogue facilitated by the Tunisian National Dialogue Quartet, political parties in Tunisia agreed to install a technocratic government led by Mehdi Jomaa." "The Syrian Salvation Government, the predecessor to the Syrian transitional government,[33] was characterized by observers as an authoritarian technocracy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy

justinrubek 1y ago
Can you provide examples of such a place? From my perspective, I find it difficult to believe that this has ever been attempted at a scale that is sufficient to come to that conclusion. I'd love to hear otherwise.
- jajuuka 1y ago
  I feel like they are coming with the same energy as "socialism never works and always fails....because we make it fail."
- 9rx 1y ago
  A "true" technocracy has never been, but China has exhibited the only "almost" example during the late 20th century. That was the period when they transformed from a sustenance-farming backwater to a powerhouse on the world stage. Of course, it is always easy for a backwater to play catchup after someone else has already figured out how to advance. It is difficult to attribute that success to technocracy, and it is likely that any system could have allowed the same forward momentum, but the correlated track record is quite good regardless. The USA flirted with the idea of technocracy around the time of the Great Depression. That is, perhaps, where the "bad record" idea has come from, but that's a pretty big leap.
breppp 1y ago
In my experience organizations ruled by lawyers are ruled by inertia. You can delegate any question to a lawyer who will advise you to not do anything
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  If they’re being delegated decision making they are, by definition, not running things.
  - breppp 1y ago
    As in, "running things" by being the last decider, the class with the most power in the system, etc Just as the king of england is the head of state yet not the source of power
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Just as the king of england is the head of state yet not the source of power The king of England doesn’t run Britain in any sense. American oligarchs exercise more political power than he does.
      - breppp 1y ago
        The king of england ran england while his (the institution) power eroded until he started working for the british parliament/government the point being, official institutions are not always the strongest in the state, a state can be practically ruled by lawyers while having a functioning government
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > king of england ran england while his (the institution) power eroded until he started working for the british parliament/government So by “running things” you mean person whose ancestors ran things. Q. E. D. Your top comment does not describe “organizations ruled by lawyers.”
owenpalmer 1y ago
> Places which let lawyers run society do better than places which let engineers run it. Can you provide any examples?
mullingitover 1y ago
Weird to throw China in there as an example of a failed technocracy. They’re currently performing so well that it’s considered a massive problem. They’re not perfect, but frankly they humiliate the US in a lot of areas because the US system is too sclerotic to adapt and improve.
advisedwang 1y ago
The problem with technocracies is that government faces choices that aren't a question that can be answered by some neutral evaluation but are instead questions of whose interests are prioritized or what values are enforced. However there ARE questions that can be neutrally evaluated, or at least where neutral evaluation can narrow the field of reasonable decisions. Medical policy is replete with decisions like this, and so we really should be consulting experts and strongly listening to their decisions in this field.

kristianp 1y ago

Lol, we have to live in this reality for at least another 3 years.