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> I would argue that you have a moral and ethical responsibility to say no when your manager asks you to do something illegal, even if it does cost you your job

> I would argue that you have a moral and ethical responsibility to say no when your manager asks you to do something illegal, even if it does cost you your job. When your access to food, housing, heating and healthcare for your family are dependent on your income, you may find yourself facing very difficult decisions. Most parents will risk whatever legal ramifications to care for their kids and that's inherent moral and ethical, even if the downstream outcome is not. That is because it is the socioeconomic system rather than the individual who is acting immorally. > The law is the law, and there is no excuse for breaking it. This is an infantile view. The law is a framework and there are lots of circumstances where breaking it is not only excusable, it's the only moral action.

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philipallstar 1y ago
> When your access to food, housing, heating and healthcare for your family are dependent on your income, you may find yourself facing very difficult decisions This is the time when your ethics are tested. Anyone can do the right thing when they're getting paid for it.
- tpoacher 1y ago
  There's a nice Jordan Peterson quote: > There was a lesson to learn from the holocaust. We're always reminded that: "Never forget, we've learned our lesson." "What was the lesson?" That's the question. The lesson is, "You're the Nazi". No-one wants to learn that; If you were there, that would have been you. You might think "Well, I'd be Oskar Schindler and I'd be rescuing the Jews." It's like, no, afraid not. You'd at least not be saying anything. And you might also be actively participating. You might also enjoy it. Hindsight theoretical morality is very different from experience on the ground, where peer pressure, stress, uncertainty, exploding situations and fog of war come into the mix.
  - GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - DennisP 1y ago
    Seems like a better lesson would be "don't be the Nazi." It's not like it's impossible. The Nazis arrested 800,000 Germans for active resistance activities, and several hundred thousand Germans deserted the military, many of those defecting to the Allies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism It wasn't a huge percentage, but we don't know how many actively resisted without getting caught, or resisted in more passive ways. And that was resistance against the Nazis, who had no qualms about killing resistors. Risking or quitting your job to not only do what's right, but avoid getting in trouble with your government, isn't in the same ballpark.
    - rurban 1y ago
      The figure of German soldiers deaths has an estimation of 50% suicides.
  - throwaway173738 1y ago
    You might want to think about why Petersen wants you to think you’re the Nazi. What change is he trying to effect in our culture, and how does that belief support his desire? Rhetoric always aims to effect some change in the attitude of the listener, and never without some benefit of the speaker.
    - bjt 1y ago
      > You might want to think about why Petersen wants you to think you’re the Nazi. What change is he trying to effect in our culture, and how does that belief support his desire? Rhetoric always aims to effect some change in the attitude of the listener, and never without some benefit of the speaker. What benefit do you think he's trying to get from it? I'm honestly trying to figure out the nefarious angle and coming up blank. It seems to me like a very similar sentiment to that great "are we the baddies?" sketch from Mitchell and Webb. [1] I see both as an exercise in moral humility. See the Milgram experiment, or the Asch experiment. Most people do cave to pressure from authorities and the group. Everybody believes they're they exception. Statistically, most of them are wrong. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY
- darth_avocado 1y ago
  Nah. I’ve been in the exact situation you describe and it’s pretty obvious tbh. Loss of a job is a temporary setback. Being locked up in a jail is a permanent one.
cess11 1y ago
Right, saying outright that Thoreau was wrong and also that pretty much every famous person who took him to heart was wrong too is a rather strong position to take and likely very, very hard to defend. Or, for a more obscure example, that Antigone should just have said 'yes daddy' and left it at that with the play ending somewhere in the initial conversation with Ismene.
barney54 1y ago
It is not moral to break the law in the furtherance of fraud. That’s the point.
- thyristan 1y ago
  But if the fraud secures the livelyhood of $bignum children and they would starve without their parents committing that fraud?
  - cindyllm 1y ago
    [dead]
  - throwaway173738 1y ago
    I think my son would rather have me in his life than have me in jail.
OskarS 1y ago
We're not talking about living in a totalitarian state and breaking the law by aiding the resistance here. The cases in the article is like committing financial fraud or faking customer data. And then, yeah, I do think there is no excuse for going along with it, you have a duty as a member of society not to do such things, even if it costs your your job. It's not easy, and as I said I have enormous sympathy for a person in this position, but there is a clear right thing to do, and you have an obligation to act accordingly.
skeeter2020 1y ago
To get rich at your software startup is not one of the situations where you have a moral obligation to break the law. None of these people were stealing bread from the rich to feed their children.
nkrisc 1y ago
As a parent, I would risk destitution over going to prison every single time. I don’t even have to think about it.
ndriscoll 1y ago
At least in the case of engineers, we're talking about highly compensated people. You should have a solid emergency fund put together within a few months of starting your career. From there, it's on you to not put yourself into an economically precarious position. People who are making multiples of the median household don't have food/shelter as an excuse. Not that it's much of an excuse for everyone else either, but with people in the professional-managerial class it's absurd.
- closewith 1y ago
  Globally, most software developers are not highly paid and certainly not enough to be above financial pressure. Becoming a whistleblower or refusing unethical demands can also lead to being blacklisted, as in most industries, loyalty is valued more highly than ethics.
  - LadyCailin 1y ago
    And the more people that buy into that, the worse it gets. That’s why this has to be fought tooth and nail from day one.
    - closewith 1y ago
      If you want to fight corruption and unethical behaviour, start with a just society that doesn't tie a person's value and well-being directly to their income. Otherwise you're fighting incentives and will never win.
      - collinmcnulty 1y ago
        You don’t get to a just society by not fighting corruption. Ask yourself not what “engineers globally” can do, but what you can do. Historically, pressure from the educated middle class has made huge impacts on culture and society.
        closewith 1y ago
crazygringo 1y ago
Yeah, but you have to factor in the probability of the orange jumpsuit. You're not going to be of much use to your family in jail. It's still a difficult decision, but it's not just your job vs your morality. It's your job vs morality+potential jail. We dish out criminal sentences precisely in order to affect the equation like this, because we know people don't always act on morality alone.
freehorse 1y ago
> […] that's inherent moral and ethical, even if the downstream outcome is not. That is because it is the socioeconomic system rather than the individual who is acting immorally. Wow. This is incredibly dangerous way of thinking. Are any “downstream outcomes” justified as moral in such a case? How about outcomes involving people dying eg due to safety or quality rules broken? People may do things like that “to feed their kids” but that does not make it ethical, especially when we actually talk about preservation of certain social status rather than real survival.

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philipallstar 1y ago

> When your access to food, housing, heating and healthcare for your family are dependent on your income, you may find yourself facing very difficult decisions This is the time when your ethics are tested. Anyone can do the right thing when they're getting paid for it.

tpoacher 1y ago
There's a nice Jordan Peterson quote: > There was a lesson to learn from the holocaust. We're always reminded that: "Never forget, we've learned our lesson." "What was the lesson?" That's the question. The lesson is, "You're the Nazi". No-one wants to learn that; If you were there, that would have been you. You might think "Well, I'd be Oskar Schindler and I'd be rescuing the Jews." It's like, no, afraid not. You'd at least not be saying anything. And you might also be actively participating. You might also enjoy it. Hindsight theoretical morality is very different from experience on the ground, where peer pressure, stress, uncertainty, exploding situations and fog of war come into the mix.
- GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
  [flagged]
- DennisP 1y ago
  Seems like a better lesson would be "don't be the Nazi." It's not like it's impossible. The Nazis arrested 800,000 Germans for active resistance activities, and several hundred thousand Germans deserted the military, many of those defecting to the Allies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism It wasn't a huge percentage, but we don't know how many actively resisted without getting caught, or resisted in more passive ways. And that was resistance against the Nazis, who had no qualms about killing resistors. Risking or quitting your job to not only do what's right, but avoid getting in trouble with your government, isn't in the same ballpark.
  - rurban 1y ago
    The figure of German soldiers deaths has an estimation of 50% suicides.
- throwaway173738 1y ago
  You might want to think about why Petersen wants you to think you’re the Nazi. What change is he trying to effect in our culture, and how does that belief support his desire? Rhetoric always aims to effect some change in the attitude of the listener, and never without some benefit of the speaker.
  - bjt 1y ago
    > You might want to think about why Petersen wants you to think you’re the Nazi. What change is he trying to effect in our culture, and how does that belief support his desire? Rhetoric always aims to effect some change in the attitude of the listener, and never without some benefit of the speaker. What benefit do you think he's trying to get from it? I'm honestly trying to figure out the nefarious angle and coming up blank. It seems to me like a very similar sentiment to that great "are we the baddies?" sketch from Mitchell and Webb. [1] I see both as an exercise in moral humility. See the Milgram experiment, or the Asch experiment. Most people do cave to pressure from authorities and the group. Everybody believes they're they exception. Statistically, most of them are wrong. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY
darth_avocado 1y ago
Nah. I’ve been in the exact situation you describe and it’s pretty obvious tbh. Loss of a job is a temporary setback. Being locked up in a jail is a permanent one.

cess11 1y ago

Right, saying outright that Thoreau was wrong and also that pretty much every famous person who took him to heart was wrong too is a rather strong position to take and likely very, very hard to defend. Or, for a more obscure example, that Antigone should just have said 'yes daddy' and left it at that with the play ending somewhere in the initial conversation with Ismene.

barney54 1y ago

It is not moral to break the law in the furtherance of fraud. That’s the point.

thyristan 1y ago
But if the fraud secures the livelyhood of $bignum children and they would starve without their parents committing that fraud?
- cindyllm 1y ago
  [dead]
- throwaway173738 1y ago
  I think my son would rather have me in his life than have me in jail.

OskarS 1y ago

We're not talking about living in a totalitarian state and breaking the law by aiding the resistance here. The cases in the article is like committing financial fraud or faking customer data. And then, yeah, I do think there is no excuse for going along with it, you have a duty as a member of society not to do such things, even if it costs your your job. It's not easy, and as I said I have enormous sympathy for a person in this position, but there is a clear right thing to do, and you have an obligation to act accordingly.

skeeter2020 1y ago

To get rich at your software startup is not one of the situations where you have a moral obligation to break the law. None of these people were stealing bread from the rich to feed their children.

nkrisc 1y ago

As a parent, I would risk destitution over going to prison every single time. I don’t even have to think about it.

ndriscoll 1y ago

At least in the case of engineers, we're talking about highly compensated people. You should have a solid emergency fund put together within a few months of starting your career. From there, it's on you to not put yourself into an economically precarious position. People who are making multiples of the median household don't have food/shelter as an excuse. Not that it's much of an excuse for everyone else either, but with people in the professional-managerial class it's absurd.

closewith 1y ago
Globally, most software developers are not highly paid and certainly not enough to be above financial pressure. Becoming a whistleblower or refusing unethical demands can also lead to being blacklisted, as in most industries, loyalty is valued more highly than ethics.
- LadyCailin 1y ago
  And the more people that buy into that, the worse it gets. That’s why this has to be fought tooth and nail from day one.
  - closewith 1y ago
    If you want to fight corruption and unethical behaviour, start with a just society that doesn't tie a person's value and well-being directly to their income. Otherwise you're fighting incentives and will never win.
    - collinmcnulty 1y ago
      You don’t get to a just society by not fighting corruption. Ask yourself not what “engineers globally” can do, but what you can do. Historically, pressure from the educated middle class has made huge impacts on culture and society.
      - closewith 1y ago

crazygringo 1y ago

Yeah, but you have to factor in the probability of the orange jumpsuit. You're not going to be of much use to your family in jail. It's still a difficult decision, but it's not just your job vs your morality. It's your job vs morality+potential jail. We dish out criminal sentences precisely in order to affect the equation like this, because we know people don't always act on morality alone.

freehorse 1y ago

> […] that's inherent moral and ethical, even if the downstream outcome is not. That is because it is the socioeconomic system rather than the individual who is acting immorally. Wow. This is incredibly dangerous way of thinking. Are any “downstream outcomes” justified as moral in such a case? How about outcomes involving people dying eg due to safety or quality rules broken? People may do things like that “to feed their kids” but that does not make it ethical, especially when we actually talk about preservation of certain social status rather than real survival.