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When Education, Journalism, Knowledge, Science and Fact Finding are no longer valued by "conservatives", why would you be surprised or upset that an organizatio

When Education, Journalism, Knowledge, Science and Fact Finding are no longer valued by "conservatives", why would you be surprised or upset that an organization which values those very things is "left" in your point of view?

hagbard_c 1y ago
This is a bit of a pointless discussion but I'll have a go at your points anyway: > When Education... Education versus indoctrination seems to be the difference in view here. Notice the downward trend in educational outcomes and relate that to the 'progressive' dominance in education. > Journalism More or less the same as above, there is a difference between a journalist and a peddler of agitprop. Most of what goes for 'journalism' in the legacy media falls under the latter instead of the former while the 'new' media mostly lacks the means to do 'real journalism'. > Knowledge See above and realise that the term 'different ways of knowing' and the pointless discussions on things like 'indigenous knowledge' and 'standpoint epistemology' are things stemming from the 'progressive' side. > Science It is getting quite repetitive but there is a difference between science as in the process of applying the scientific method to gain insight and knowledge and Science™ as a producer of dogma. Ask your latest supreme court justice if she can define what a woman is and you'll soon understand the difference. > Fact Finding Rinse and repeat, it is the 'progressive' side which uses terms like 'my truth' and 'your truth'. What you're summing up is not a 'difference between left and right' but the result of a thorough indoctrination by one of the extremes into thinking 'the other side' is comprised of drooling idiots. For a true comparison you should remove the opinions of the extreme outliers on the 'left' and 'right' and soon you'll find that there is not that much difference between rational people who happen to lean more towards the right or left. The one problem here is that it has become practice on the 'progressive' side to 'center the margin' [1] in an appeal to 'support the oppressed in their struggle against the oppressors' which then creates new marginal opinions which in turn are centred until it is margins all the way down. For perspective, I'm a European - Dutchman living in Sweden, both relatively 'progressive' countries. It used to be that we considered American politics to consist of two parties, one right (R) and once centre-right (D) compared to the wider spectrum seen here with everything from Lenin-Stalin-Mao-hailing communists to blood-and-soil ultranationalists and everything in between. This has changed, especially in the last 15 years due to the radical left-wing slide of the 'democratic' party which now voices opinions which are comparable to those of European socialist parties. I suspect they do not represent the political opinion of the majority of their potential voter base and with that I don´t see these opinions becoming mainstream other than in the 'deep blue' cities but the American left is now in many ways comparable to and in some ways more radical than their European 'comrades'. Reading or listening to speeches by people like JFK or Bill Clinton in the current situation makes you wonder whether they are in the same party as Obama or Harris or any of the grandstanding loudmouths like Jeffries or 'the squad'. It is quite remarkable how a country so big with so much potential has managed to produce a political class so dysfunctional and incompetent. Not that we're much better off here in Europe mind you but that is another discussion for another day. [1] search for the terms or peruse some of the following for an idea of what 'centring the margin' leads to: https://kalamu.com/neogriot/2015/03/21/pov-bell-hooks-feminist-theory-from-margin-to-center-and-the-modern-left-a-marxist-critique/ https://kalamu.com/neogriot/2015/03/21/pov-bell-hooks-femini..., https://primarygoals.com/teams/models/center-margin/ https://primarygoals.com/teams/models/center-margin/, https://www.newamerica.org/family-centered-social-policy/policy-papers/centering-margins/ https://www.newamerica.org/family-centered-social-policy/pol..., https://wagner.nyu.edu/files/faculty/publications/Arrival%20at%20the%20Margins.pdf https://wagner.nyu.edu/files/faculty/publications/Arrival%20..., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Theory:_From_Margin_to_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Theory:_From_Margin_t..., https://livrepository.liverpool.ac.uk/3003214/1/Naegler_and_Salman_2016_Cultural_Criminology_and_Gender_Consciousness.pdf https://livrepository.liverpool.ac.uk/3003214/1/Naegler_and_..., ... - the list is endless
- suzdude 1y ago
  Why are you getting so upset that "conservatives" don't value the things they claim not to value? You're ignoring the core argument, instead trying to play dumb "let's define the words". The modern GOP opposes those ideas. If you want to contend that core argument, feel free. Otherwise: > Education versus indoctrination It's interesting you bring that up, considering the slide in outcomes is rather intense in areas with non-public forms of irrational indoctrination. > journalist and a peddler of agitprop ... 'journalism' in the legacy media And yet, Fox News, the largest and most popular Legacy Main Stream media player falls, very obviously into the later description of "agitprop". > ask your latest supreme court justice Ah. I do not posses a Supreme Court justice. I do not presume any justice is, "my", or "your" justice. It's rather reductive to refer to someone that way, especially a person of African American descent. > Rinse and repeat, it is the 'progressive' side which uses terms like 'my truth' and 'your truth'. Yeah. You cannot invalidate other people's personal experiences. That's, uh, pretty basic. Empathy is unpopular with some folks right now. > I suspect they do not represent the political opinion of the majority of their potential voter base That's rather true for the extreme maggots running executive branch, sure.
  - hagbard_c 1y ago
    Only one response to make sure I'm correct in who I'm conversing with: > > ask your latest supreme court justice > Ah. I do not posses a Supreme Court justice. I have been assuming you're an American all the time and made my remarks based on those assumptions. If you are an American this latest supreme court justice is 'yours', if not she isn't. Assuming that you are indeed an American I can only conclude you assume I meant 'your (...) supreme court justice' in an ideological way - why? Is that a normal way to talk about justices in your circles? It is not in mine.
    - suzdude 1y ago
      > Is that a normal way to talk about justices in your circles? It is _extremely_ common to speak that way about government officials in conservative circles in the United States. Not centrist, liberal or progressive ones, because such language is reductive and problematic. It is also _extremely_ common to use the dog whistle[1] of "define a woman" in American Conservative circles. American conservatives often use such bigotry to justify political violence against those they see as less than themselves[2]. If you want to say, "your Supreme Court's latest Justice", or "your nation's newest Justice", feel free. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics) [2]https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-rich...

hagbard_c 1y ago

This is a bit of a pointless discussion but I'll have a go at your points anyway: > When Education... Education versus indoctrination seems to be the difference in view here. Notice the downward trend in educational outcomes and relate that to the 'progressive' dominance in education. > Journalism More or less the same as above, there is a difference between a journalist and a peddler of agitprop. Most of what goes for 'journalism' in the legacy media falls under the latter instead of the former while the 'new' media mostly lacks the means to do 'real journalism'. > Knowledge See above and realise that the term 'different ways of knowing' and the pointless discussions on things like 'indigenous knowledge' and 'standpoint epistemology' are things stemming from the 'progressive' side. > Science It is getting quite repetitive but there is a difference between science as in the process of applying the scientific method to gain insight and knowledge and Science™ as a producer of dogma. Ask your latest supreme court justice if she can define what a woman is and you'll soon understand the difference. > Fact Finding Rinse and repeat, it is the 'progressive' side which uses terms like 'my truth' and 'your truth'. What you're summing up is not a 'difference between left and right' but the result of a thorough indoctrination by one of the extremes into thinking 'the other side' is comprised of drooling idiots. For a true comparison you should remove the opinions of the extreme outliers on the 'left' and 'right' and soon you'll find that there is not that much difference between rational people who happen to lean more towards the right or left. The one problem here is that it has become practice on the 'progressive' side to 'center the margin' [1] in an appeal to 'support the oppressed in their struggle against the oppressors' which then creates new marginal opinions which in turn are centred until it is margins all the way down. For perspective, I'm a European - Dutchman living in Sweden, both relatively 'progressive' countries. It used to be that we considered American politics to consist of two parties, one right (R) and once centre-right (D) compared to the wider spectrum seen here with everything from Lenin-Stalin-Mao-hailing communists to blood-and-soil ultranationalists and everything in between. This has changed, especially in the last 15 years due to the radical left-wing slide of the 'democratic' party which now voices opinions which are comparable to those of European socialist parties. I suspect they do not represent the political opinion of the majority of their potential voter base and with that I don´t see these opinions becoming mainstream other than in the 'deep blue' cities but the American left is now in many ways comparable to and in some ways more radical than their European 'comrades'. Reading or listening to speeches by people like JFK or Bill Clinton in the current situation makes you wonder whether they are in the same party as Obama or Harris or any of the grandstanding loudmouths like Jeffries or 'the squad'. It is quite remarkable how a country so big with so much potential has managed to produce a political class so dysfunctional and incompetent. Not that we're much better off here in Europe mind you but that is another discussion for another day. [1] search for the terms or peruse some of the following for an idea of what 'centring the margin' leads to: https://kalamu.com/neogriot/2015/03/21/pov-bell-hooks-feminist-theory-from-margin-to-center-and-the-modern-left-a-marxist-critique/ https://kalamu.com/neogriot/2015/03/21/pov-bell-hooks-femini..., https://primarygoals.com/teams/models/center-margin/ https://primarygoals.com/teams/models/center-margin/, https://www.newamerica.org/family-centered-social-policy/policy-papers/centering-margins/ https://www.newamerica.org/family-centered-social-policy/pol..., https://wagner.nyu.edu/files/faculty/publications/Arrival%20at%20the%20Margins.pdf https://wagner.nyu.edu/files/faculty/publications/Arrival%20..., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Theory:_From_Margin_to_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Theory:_From_Margin_t..., https://livrepository.liverpool.ac.uk/3003214/1/Naegler_and_Salman_2016_Cultural_Criminology_and_Gender_Consciousness.pdf https://livrepository.liverpool.ac.uk/3003214/1/Naegler_and_..., ... - the list is endless

suzdude 1y ago
Why are you getting so upset that "conservatives" don't value the things they claim not to value? You're ignoring the core argument, instead trying to play dumb "let's define the words". The modern GOP opposes those ideas. If you want to contend that core argument, feel free. Otherwise: > Education versus indoctrination It's interesting you bring that up, considering the slide in outcomes is rather intense in areas with non-public forms of irrational indoctrination. > journalist and a peddler of agitprop ... 'journalism' in the legacy media And yet, Fox News, the largest and most popular Legacy Main Stream media player falls, very obviously into the later description of "agitprop". > ask your latest supreme court justice Ah. I do not posses a Supreme Court justice. I do not presume any justice is, "my", or "your" justice. It's rather reductive to refer to someone that way, especially a person of African American descent. > Rinse and repeat, it is the 'progressive' side which uses terms like 'my truth' and 'your truth'. Yeah. You cannot invalidate other people's personal experiences. That's, uh, pretty basic. Empathy is unpopular with some folks right now. > I suspect they do not represent the political opinion of the majority of their potential voter base That's rather true for the extreme maggots running executive branch, sure.
- hagbard_c 1y ago
  Only one response to make sure I'm correct in who I'm conversing with: > > ask your latest supreme court justice > Ah. I do not posses a Supreme Court justice. I have been assuming you're an American all the time and made my remarks based on those assumptions. If you are an American this latest supreme court justice is 'yours', if not she isn't. Assuming that you are indeed an American I can only conclude you assume I meant 'your (...) supreme court justice' in an ideological way - why? Is that a normal way to talk about justices in your circles? It is not in mine.
  - suzdude 1y ago
    > Is that a normal way to talk about justices in your circles? It is _extremely_ common to speak that way about government officials in conservative circles in the United States. Not centrist, liberal or progressive ones, because such language is reductive and problematic. It is also _extremely_ common to use the dog whistle[1] of "define a woman" in American Conservative circles. American conservatives often use such bigotry to justify political violence against those they see as less than themselves[2]. If you want to say, "your Supreme Court's latest Justice", or "your nation's newest Justice", feel free. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics) [2]https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-rich...