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Likely more than 50% of the world's population agrees with viewpoints that some would label "trans-eliminationist rhetoric". So if you are saying anyone who eve

Likely more than 50% of the world's population agrees with viewpoints that some would label "trans-eliminationist rhetoric". So if you are saying anyone who ever expresses such viewpoints–even in forums completely unrelated to the project–is barred from contributing to it, you are potentially excluding more than half of contemporary humanity.

thunderfork 1y ago
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OkayPhysicist 1y ago
A community doesn't exist for "the majority of the world". It exists for its community. If a community doesn't want bigots (as they shouldn't), they absolutely should exclude them.
- aidenn0 1y ago
  I just haven't seen CoCs effectively reduce the bigots in a community; they either are toothless, or have teeth and lead to a j'accuse breakdown. It is a tiny fraction of the people I know and have interacted with over an extended period of time who has not made a remark that could be construed as bigoted. I have seen moderators called bigots for suspending (instead of banning) someone who made an inappropriate remark. My wife and I have been accused (behind our back) of misgendering someone when we were using the pronouns that we had privately confirmed she preferred. If you create a CoC with real teeth, then instead of the BDFL or core team or whatever controlling who is in the community, it's the people in the community who are most interested in accusing people of violating the CoC that have control over who is in the community.
- skissane 1y ago
  If a community wants to exclude many millions-even billions-of people around the world, including the population supermajority of dozens of countries, and all those who seriously believe in the traditional teachings of any one of several major religious traditions-and denigrate those people it excludes as “bigots”-well, maybe that in itself is a form of bigotry, and hence their labelling others “bigots” is a case of “the pot calling the kettle black”
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1y ago
Do you want me eliminated?
- skissane 1y ago
  I don’t want anyone “eliminated”… the problem is what does “eliminated” mean? If it means “rounding up people and shooting them” then of course I oppose that. But what about the conservative Jew/Christian/Muslim who believes that when Moshiach/Christ/Mahdi comes/returns, gender dysphoria will cease to exist-is that belief also “eliminationist”? I think religious freedom means we need to tolerate the existence of such beliefs even if we believe they are wrong. Excluding someone from an open source community because they hold traditional religious beliefs on gender and sexuality-especially if we assume they keep those beliefs out of project forums where they aren’t relevant-that’s religious discrimination, and in my view it is wrong, and (in some jurisdictions) it may even be unlawful
sc68cal 1y ago
Would you feel the same way if it were eliminationist language, but against Jews, or African-Americans, or Irish-Americans, or Men?
- skissane 1y ago
  So, if a person is a traditionalist/conservative Orthodox Jew, who holds traditional “non-affirming” views on LGBT issues-do those views count as “eliminationist rhetoric”? If a project decides it won’t welcome people who believe what almost all conservative/traditionalist Orthodox Jews believe (even if they keep those beliefs to themselves in project forums), it is essentially deciding that Jews (of that kind) aren’t welcome-isn’t that antisemitic, and in itself a species of eliminationism? (not with respect to Jews in general, rather with respect to Jews of that kind) And the same point holds for “Sunni” or “Shi’a” or “Catholic” or “Protestant” or “Eastern Orthodox”
  - HelloNurse 1y ago
    There's a clear difference between respecting people and hate speech; no project should welcome someone who contributes inappropriate insults and off-topic rants. If that stereotypical Orthodox Jew wants to be a valuable community member, they can keep their hostile opinions to themselves, and nobody will consider them troublemakers. Obviously they won't feel welcome because they realize that the majority would despise them as bigots if they expressed intolerable opinions, but hopefully it can become a reason to question their ideology.
    - skissane 1y ago
      I think the distinction is whether they express their views in project settings or in unrelated settings. If they express them in project settings, then I can’t see how that could possibly be on-topic, which makes it disruptive behaviour. But if they express them in unrelated settings, and then someone else brings that to the attention of the project-well, then it has nothing to do with the project, so the project should refuse to get involved

thunderfork 1y ago

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OkayPhysicist 1y ago

A community doesn't exist for "the majority of the world". It exists for its community. If a community doesn't want bigots (as they shouldn't), they absolutely should exclude them.

aidenn0 1y ago
I just haven't seen CoCs effectively reduce the bigots in a community; they either are toothless, or have teeth and lead to a j'accuse breakdown. It is a tiny fraction of the people I know and have interacted with over an extended period of time who has not made a remark that could be construed as bigoted. I have seen moderators called bigots for suspending (instead of banning) someone who made an inappropriate remark. My wife and I have been accused (behind our back) of misgendering someone when we were using the pronouns that we had privately confirmed she preferred. If you create a CoC with real teeth, then instead of the BDFL or core team or whatever controlling who is in the community, it's the people in the community who are most interested in accusing people of violating the CoC that have control over who is in the community.
skissane 1y ago
If a community wants to exclude many millions-even billions-of people around the world, including the population supermajority of dozens of countries, and all those who seriously believe in the traditional teachings of any one of several major religious traditions-and denigrate those people it excludes as “bigots”-well, maybe that in itself is a form of bigotry, and hence their labelling others “bigots” is a case of “the pot calling the kettle black”

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1y ago

Do you want me eliminated?

skissane 1y ago
I don’t want anyone “eliminated”… the problem is what does “eliminated” mean? If it means “rounding up people and shooting them” then of course I oppose that. But what about the conservative Jew/Christian/Muslim who believes that when Moshiach/Christ/Mahdi comes/returns, gender dysphoria will cease to exist-is that belief also “eliminationist”? I think religious freedom means we need to tolerate the existence of such beliefs even if we believe they are wrong. Excluding someone from an open source community because they hold traditional religious beliefs on gender and sexuality-especially if we assume they keep those beliefs out of project forums where they aren’t relevant-that’s religious discrimination, and in my view it is wrong, and (in some jurisdictions) it may even be unlawful

sc68cal 1y ago

Would you feel the same way if it were eliminationist language, but against Jews, or African-Americans, or Irish-Americans, or Men?

skissane 1y ago
So, if a person is a traditionalist/conservative Orthodox Jew, who holds traditional “non-affirming” views on LGBT issues-do those views count as “eliminationist rhetoric”? If a project decides it won’t welcome people who believe what almost all conservative/traditionalist Orthodox Jews believe (even if they keep those beliefs to themselves in project forums), it is essentially deciding that Jews (of that kind) aren’t welcome-isn’t that antisemitic, and in itself a species of eliminationism? (not with respect to Jews in general, rather with respect to Jews of that kind) And the same point holds for “Sunni” or “Shi’a” or “Catholic” or “Protestant” or “Eastern Orthodox”
- HelloNurse 1y ago
  There's a clear difference between respecting people and hate speech; no project should welcome someone who contributes inappropriate insults and off-topic rants. If that stereotypical Orthodox Jew wants to be a valuable community member, they can keep their hostile opinions to themselves, and nobody will consider them troublemakers. Obviously they won't feel welcome because they realize that the majority would despise them as bigots if they expressed intolerable opinions, but hopefully it can become a reason to question their ideology.
  - skissane 1y ago
    I think the distinction is whether they express their views in project settings or in unrelated settings. If they express them in project settings, then I can’t see how that could possibly be on-topic, which makes it disruptive behaviour. But if they express them in unrelated settings, and then someone else brings that to the attention of the project-well, then it has nothing to do with the project, so the project should refuse to get involved