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There’s definitely always been vibes of this off the PC market. So hard to get one that’s “nice” y’know what I mean. There are some notable high end PC vendors

by rusk 1y ago

There’s definitely always been vibes of this off the PC market. So hard to get one that’s “nice” y’know what I mean. There are some notable high end PC vendors but they typically sell direct. In the high street, it’s lemons all the way down. Even reputable brands have to get in on the action with a lemon line. Apple’s whole thing it seems, has always to stay away from being a lemon. The only time they came close, incidentally was in the 90s when they started licensing their product to other manufacturers. This is what solid branding does. Helps you not be perceived as a lemon.

righthand 1y ago
Sure. Apples never made lemons if you completely ignore all their failures. What instantly springs to mind is the keyboard saga. Those laptops were lemons. Here are some more product failures, arguably listed there are plenty of lemons: https://qz.com/apples-12-worst-product-failures-of-all-time-1851112540 https://qz.com/apples-12-worst-product-failures-of-all-time-... Not listed but I would absolutely list the screen nub a usability failure and I consider my work laptop and work phone a lemon because of it. I’d also consider large phones a usability failure. My work phone is a Iphone 13 Mini. Brand capture is powerful but maybe only if you’re willing to eat the propaganda.
- bitwize 1y ago
  The first 2006 Intel MacBook Pros had a bad batch somewhere. I knew a bunch of guys who bought one as soon as they came out, and within a week every single one of those MBPs was in the shop. I bought a $900 Compaq Athlon64 laptop. It still works today and never needed repairs.
  - rusk 1y ago
    These are all examples of lemon devices. Not of a lemon market.
    - righthand 1y ago
      Differentiating a lemon from a lemon-market is moving the goal posts.
- rusk 1y ago
  > Brand capture is powerful but maybe only if you’re willing to eat the propaganda. Correct. The brand stays solid. The keyboard, the ribbon, there were a few citrus aspects to that generation but they rolled it back in the next generation. Crucially, it only affected a small (but vocal!) niche market so the brand remained solid. To be clear. I’m not making the case that Apple haven’t made mistakes or lemons, but that they have not entered the “lemon market” and continue to demand, and receive a premium for their goods.
  - righthand 1y ago
    I think you’re conflating lemons with “mid-range product”. Apple controls a lot of hardware, leaving competitors with a huge disadvantage. So the mid-range market aren’t ALL lemons as you’re implying. > To be clear. I’m not making the case that Apple haven’t made mistakes or lemons, but I think the rest of what you’re saying is just more if the propaganda.
Night_Thastus 1y ago
I'm a bit unclear - are you talking about off-the-shelf prebuilds like the sort Dell or HP would sell? Or are you talking more gaming-oriented ones? Or are you talking just parts? If you get something more business-oriented, most of them are reasonable. They're not as good or as cheap as if you assembled it by hand, but they offer good discounts and benefits for businesses buying in bulk. They're often plenty powerful and well-specc'd for what you pay. Gaming is different. 90% of the gaming pre-builts are complete garbage, because their buyers only buy one at a time and aren't well-informed, nor do they tend to have a lawyer on hand. They're poor value for money, sometimes use sub-standard parts or proprietary non-standard formats, are poorly configured, not well tested, etc.
- rusk 1y ago
  > Dell or HP HP: nicely designed lemons Dell: citrusy with a note of quality but you need to know which ones to get. Sometimes you need a few but they get there in the end > gaming-oriented ones Generally nicely powered but garishly designed and flimsy > just parts No. That should have been clear. > they offer good discounts and benefits for businesses buying in bulk Also outside the market. You need to know who to talk to. Another brand that do good laptops are Lenovo but, they also have their lemon lines which you can end up buying from again if you don’t know what you’re doing.

by rusk 1y ago

righthand 1y ago

Sure. Apples never made lemons if you completely ignore all their failures. What instantly springs to mind is the keyboard saga. Those laptops were lemons. Here are some more product failures, arguably listed there are plenty of lemons: https://qz.com/apples-12-worst-product-failures-of-all-time-1851112540 https://qz.com/apples-12-worst-product-failures-of-all-time-... Not listed but I would absolutely list the screen nub a usability failure and I consider my work laptop and work phone a lemon because of it. I’d also consider large phones a usability failure. My work phone is a Iphone 13 Mini. Brand capture is powerful but maybe only if you’re willing to eat the propaganda.

bitwize 1y ago
The first 2006 Intel MacBook Pros had a bad batch somewhere. I knew a bunch of guys who bought one as soon as they came out, and within a week every single one of those MBPs was in the shop. I bought a $900 Compaq Athlon64 laptop. It still works today and never needed repairs.
- rusk 1y ago
  These are all examples of lemon devices. Not of a lemon market.
  - righthand 1y ago
    Differentiating a lemon from a lemon-market is moving the goal posts.
rusk 1y ago
> Brand capture is powerful but maybe only if you’re willing to eat the propaganda. Correct. The brand stays solid. The keyboard, the ribbon, there were a few citrus aspects to that generation but they rolled it back in the next generation. Crucially, it only affected a small (but vocal!) niche market so the brand remained solid. To be clear. I’m not making the case that Apple haven’t made mistakes or lemons, but that they have not entered the “lemon market” and continue to demand, and receive a premium for their goods.
- righthand 1y ago
  I think you’re conflating lemons with “mid-range product”. Apple controls a lot of hardware, leaving competitors with a huge disadvantage. So the mid-range market aren’t ALL lemons as you’re implying. > To be clear. I’m not making the case that Apple haven’t made mistakes or lemons, but I think the rest of what you’re saying is just more if the propaganda.

Night_Thastus 1y ago

I'm a bit unclear - are you talking about off-the-shelf prebuilds like the sort Dell or HP would sell? Or are you talking more gaming-oriented ones? Or are you talking just parts? If you get something more business-oriented, most of them are reasonable. They're not as good or as cheap as if you assembled it by hand, but they offer good discounts and benefits for businesses buying in bulk. They're often plenty powerful and well-specc'd for what you pay. Gaming is different. 90% of the gaming pre-builts are complete garbage, because their buyers only buy one at a time and aren't well-informed, nor do they tend to have a lawyer on hand. They're poor value for money, sometimes use sub-standard parts or proprietary non-standard formats, are poorly configured, not well tested, etc.

rusk 1y ago
> Dell or HP HP: nicely designed lemons Dell: citrusy with a note of quality but you need to know which ones to get. Sometimes you need a few but they get there in the end > gaming-oriented ones Generally nicely powered but garishly designed and flimsy > just parts No. That should have been clear. > they offer good discounts and benefits for businesses buying in bulk Also outside the market. You need to know who to talk to. Another brand that do good laptops are Lenovo but, they also have their lemon lines which you can end up buying from again if you don’t know what you’re doing.