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Don't bother with nuance, in 2025 everything bad[1] is "fascism". The idea that authoritarianism can have any other form seems to be forgotten. [1] Often defin

Don't bother with nuance, in 2025 everything bad[1] is "fascism". The idea that authoritarianism can have any other form seems to be forgotten. [1] Often defined as something a poster doesn't agree with, thought sometimes genuinely bad things as well.

HanClinto 1y ago
> The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable." From "Politics and the English Language" by George Orwell (1946)
- bigfudge 1y ago
  I don't think Facism is a meaningless concept, or the use of it to describe Trump/MAGA is empty. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism --- In his 1995 essay "Ur-Fascism", cultural theorist Umberto Eco lists fourteen general properties of fascist ideology.[17] He argues that it is not possible to organise these into a coherent system, but that "it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it". He uses the term "Ur-Fascism" as a generic description of different historical forms of fascism. The fourteen properties are as follows: "The cult of tradition", characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement. "The rejection of modernism", which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system. "The cult of action for action's sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science. "Disagreement is treason" – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith. "Fear of difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants. "Appeal to a frustrated middle class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups. "Obsession with a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society (such as the German elite's "fear" of the 1930s Jewish populace's businesses and well-doings; see also antisemitism). Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession. Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak". On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will. "Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war. "Contempt for the weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate leader, who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force. "Everybody is educated to become a hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death." "Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality". "Selective populism" – the people, conceived monolithically, have a common will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he alone dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the voice of the people". "Newspeak" – fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary to limit critical reasoning. From a European perspective, it's really hard not to see much/all of this resonating in MAGA USA.
  - philipallstar 1y ago
    > From a European perspective, it's really hard not to see much/all of this resonating in MAGA USA. That might be partly because there've been 10 years of everything being called fascism, rather than any genuine thought that selects fascism out of a group of alternatives.
    - bigfudge 1y ago
      This is so lazy. I literally posted a list of things that typify facism in an article from 30 years ago. In case it’s not clear: Trump looks like a racist and a facist to many Europeans. He’s stoking division for policitical ends, extending and normalising the use of the army under laughably thin pretext. What is shocking is how little Americans see to notice or care. But given the state of your media, perhaps that’s to be expected?
robin_reala 1y ago
Under Umberto Eco’s definition of Ur-Fascism[1] (the usual one I reach for, though others are available) what GP is referencing is most closely aligned with #13 Selective Populism, which at least from my viewpoint outside the US is seemingly correct. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism
- AlexandrB 1y ago
  At the risk of sounding dumb, I've never found this list of traits particularly illuminating. Many of these are found in the left political faction in the US as well (4, 7, 8, 13[1] and 14 immediately come to mind) and some are absent from the right. How do you weight which ones are important and who's really "fascist"? The whole exercise feels like going on WebMD and diagnosing yourself with cancer because of some vague symptoms. Doesn't mean that nothing is wrong with you, but it's not necessarily cancer either. [1] This one happened in this very thread where someone accused the Supreme Court and Congress of being complicit. Like, ok.
mindslight 1y ago
An autocrat attacking and destroying societal institutions, bringing industry to heel under his dictats, and running concentration camps to perform ethnic cleansing (while being primed to move on to ideological cleansing). It's not "Fascism" in the sense of being Mussolini's party, but if you're willing to label National Socialism / Naziism as "fascism" then the label most certainly applies to Trumpism.
SetTheorist 1y ago
From "Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt" by Umberto Eco. via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism I think it is quite evident that the modern far-right movement in the US (including those in power today) can be characterized as fascist. "The cult of tradition," characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement. "The rejection of modernism," which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system. "The cult of action for action's sake," which dictates that action is of value in itself and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science. "Disagreement is treason" – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith. "Fear of difference," which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants. "Appeal to a frustrated middle class," fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups. "Obsession with a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society. Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession. Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak." On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will. "Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war. "Contempt for the weak," which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate leader, who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force. "Everybody is educated to become a hero," which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death." "Machismo," which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality." "Selective populism" – the people, conceived monolithically, have a common will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he alone dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the voice of the people". "Newspeak" – fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.
rockercoaster 1y ago
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HanClinto 1y ago

> The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable." From "Politics and the English Language" by George Orwell (1946)

bigfudge 1y ago
I don't think Facism is a meaningless concept, or the use of it to describe Trump/MAGA is empty. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism --- In his 1995 essay "Ur-Fascism", cultural theorist Umberto Eco lists fourteen general properties of fascist ideology.[17] He argues that it is not possible to organise these into a coherent system, but that "it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it". He uses the term "Ur-Fascism" as a generic description of different historical forms of fascism. The fourteen properties are as follows: "The cult of tradition", characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement. "The rejection of modernism", which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system. "The cult of action for action's sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science. "Disagreement is treason" – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith. "Fear of difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants. "Appeal to a frustrated middle class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups. "Obsession with a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society (such as the German elite's "fear" of the 1930s Jewish populace's businesses and well-doings; see also antisemitism). Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession. Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak". On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will. "Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war. "Contempt for the weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate leader, who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force. "Everybody is educated to become a hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death." "Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality". "Selective populism" – the people, conceived monolithically, have a common will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he alone dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the voice of the people". "Newspeak" – fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary to limit critical reasoning. From a European perspective, it's really hard not to see much/all of this resonating in MAGA USA.
- philipallstar 1y ago
  > From a European perspective, it's really hard not to see much/all of this resonating in MAGA USA. That might be partly because there've been 10 years of everything being called fascism, rather than any genuine thought that selects fascism out of a group of alternatives.
  - bigfudge 1y ago
    This is so lazy. I literally posted a list of things that typify facism in an article from 30 years ago. In case it’s not clear: Trump looks like a racist and a facist to many Europeans. He’s stoking division for policitical ends, extending and normalising the use of the army under laughably thin pretext. What is shocking is how little Americans see to notice or care. But given the state of your media, perhaps that’s to be expected?

robin_reala 1y ago

Under Umberto Eco’s definition of Ur-Fascism[1] (the usual one I reach for, though others are available) what GP is referencing is most closely aligned with #13 Selective Populism, which at least from my viewpoint outside the US is seemingly correct. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism

AlexandrB 1y ago
At the risk of sounding dumb, I've never found this list of traits particularly illuminating. Many of these are found in the left political faction in the US as well (4, 7, 8, 13[1] and 14 immediately come to mind) and some are absent from the right. How do you weight which ones are important and who's really "fascist"? The whole exercise feels like going on WebMD and diagnosing yourself with cancer because of some vague symptoms. Doesn't mean that nothing is wrong with you, but it's not necessarily cancer either. [1] This one happened in this very thread where someone accused the Supreme Court and Congress of being complicit. Like, ok.

mindslight 1y ago

An autocrat attacking and destroying societal institutions, bringing industry to heel under his dictats, and running concentration camps to perform ethnic cleansing (while being primed to move on to ideological cleansing). It's not "Fascism" in the sense of being Mussolini's party, but if you're willing to label National Socialism / Naziism as "fascism" then the label most certainly applies to Trumpism.

SetTheorist 1y ago

From "Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt" by Umberto Eco. via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism I think it is quite evident that the modern far-right movement in the US (including those in power today) can be characterized as fascist. "The cult of tradition," characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement. "The rejection of modernism," which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system. "The cult of action for action's sake," which dictates that action is of value in itself and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science. "Disagreement is treason" – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith. "Fear of difference," which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants. "Appeal to a frustrated middle class," fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups. "Obsession with a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society. Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession. Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak." On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will. "Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war. "Contempt for the weak," which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate leader, who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force. "Everybody is educated to become a hero," which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death." "Machismo," which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality." "Selective populism" – the people, conceived monolithically, have a common will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he alone dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the voice of the people". "Newspeak" – fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.

rockercoaster 1y ago

[dead]