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You mention IDEs besides VS Code, Linux, and ricing as “green flags”. Those are not proxies for “being a good programmer” and they are not proxies for “being e

by gyulai 1y ago

You mention IDEs besides VS Code, Linux, and ricing as “green flags”. Those are not proxies for “being a good programmer” and they are not proxies for “being enthusiastic about programming”. They're just selecting for programmers who share your subjective preferences on matters that are the equivalent of “vi vs. emacs”. The only workplaces that realistically allow people to use Linux desktops are academia and top-5%-sexiness-factor startups. The other 95% of us have to use what our boss tells us to use (and he got told by the insurance company that scammed him into cybersecurity insurance). Those of us who have families, don't spend our leisure time staring into yet another desktop computer that isn't our work machine, so how, on earth, would we be using Linux desktops? Conversely: Imagine someone has spent an 8-hour-workday setting up their tiling window manager, so they can “improve their productivity” because now they don't need to spend 2 minutes painting all their windows into the right positions in the morning. That's an investment of time that takes (8*60)/2 = 240 days, so roughly one work-year, to amortize. What does that tell you about the time management skills of that person? I don't say that to knock tiling window managers: If you're into it, be my guest. It's perfectly fine for reasonable people to reasonably disagree on those kinds of subjective preferences. That's what subjectivity is all about. And that's why it's valuable to hire a diverse range of people who have different viewpoints on these kinds of things. EDIT: ...and that's what I mean by "diversity": To include both family-people and people without families. Young and old. People with an academic background and people without one. Vi-people and emacs-people. Please don't strawman me by bringing up disabled people and work permits and whatnot.

komali2 1y ago
> To include both family-people and people without families. Young and old. People with an academic background and people without one. Vi-people and emacs-people. Well, I don't know what to tell you, you've just described my entire team, same as my previous company that had a bunch of linux/unix dweebs, so the fact that we're all really into computers hasn't hindered us from this diversity. All my jobs have let me choose my OS, all my jobs were full of people exactly as you describe, they just all happened to be really into computers. How the family folks found time for it is a question I still ask myself to this day when I compare my knowledge to theirs, but regardless, it wasn't a hindrance. So I maintain my confusion around selecting for this. It's just not my experience that it prevents me working with family folks, or old folks, bootcamp kids and phD ML people. So, ok, we've come this far: How do you run interviews? What's the alternative to the way I've seen?
deaux 1y ago
> The only workplaces that realistically allow people to use Linux desktops are academia and top-5%-sexiness-factor startups. The other 95% of us have to use what our boss tells us to use (and he got told by the insurance company that scammed him into cybersecurity insurance). This is super ironic and shows your "us" in "the rest of us" is a tiny, marginal group, maybe "Silicon Valley programmers" or something. In most small software companies they couldn't care less what you use, the only thing they look at is perceived "speed". You could install Red Star OS and get a few pats on the back if you're closing the highest number of Jira tickets. Hell, nowadays more and more are full remote and the devs do their work on their personal device. Or they do BYOD. Work devices are a cost center. It's the opposite, the only places that force a particular OS are the top companies for whom compliance, fleet management and such are priorities.
- gyulai 1y ago
  Kind of funny, these mutually escalating accusations of being a member of an out-of-touch elite. All it takes for BYOD to become difficult is having to handle personally identifiable information under the rules of the GDPR, or having some kind of professional indemnity insurance with cybersecurity provisions, perhaps having quality management certification, being in certain highly-regulated professions like law or medicine, being in the public sector, working government contracts, etc. etc. (the list goes on and on) -- I'm just finding it hard to believe that this list doesn't capture most companies. But then again, maybe, I am a member of an out-of-touch elite.
deleted 1y ago
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Gormo 1y ago
> You mention IDEs besides VS Code, Linux, and ricing as “green flags”. Those are not proxies for “being a good programmer” and they are not proxies for “being enthusiastic about programming”. They're just selecting for programmers who share your subjective preferences on matters that are the equivalent of “vi vs. emacs”. Are you sure about that? I have a strong suspicion that there may be a measurable correlation between using IDEs and other tools that aren't currently trendy/overhyped and having a stronger-than-average foundation of experience. Given that VSCode is the big, trendy IDE at the moment, doesn't using a different one indicate that a developer has, at minimum, invested some thought and effort into considering alternatives and making a conscious choice?

by gyulai 1y ago

komali2 1y ago

> To include both family-people and people without families. Young and old. People with an academic background and people without one. Vi-people and emacs-people. Well, I don't know what to tell you, you've just described my entire team, same as my previous company that had a bunch of linux/unix dweebs, so the fact that we're all really into computers hasn't hindered us from this diversity. All my jobs have let me choose my OS, all my jobs were full of people exactly as you describe, they just all happened to be really into computers. How the family folks found time for it is a question I still ask myself to this day when I compare my knowledge to theirs, but regardless, it wasn't a hindrance. So I maintain my confusion around selecting for this. It's just not my experience that it prevents me working with family folks, or old folks, bootcamp kids and phD ML people. So, ok, we've come this far: How do you run interviews? What's the alternative to the way I've seen?

deaux 1y ago

> The only workplaces that realistically allow people to use Linux desktops are academia and top-5%-sexiness-factor startups. The other 95% of us have to use what our boss tells us to use (and he got told by the insurance company that scammed him into cybersecurity insurance). This is super ironic and shows your "us" in "the rest of us" is a tiny, marginal group, maybe "Silicon Valley programmers" or something. In most small software companies they couldn't care less what you use, the only thing they look at is perceived "speed". You could install Red Star OS and get a few pats on the back if you're closing the highest number of Jira tickets. Hell, nowadays more and more are full remote and the devs do their work on their personal device. Or they do BYOD. Work devices are a cost center. It's the opposite, the only places that force a particular OS are the top companies for whom compliance, fleet management and such are priorities.

gyulai 1y ago
Kind of funny, these mutually escalating accusations of being a member of an out-of-touch elite. All it takes for BYOD to become difficult is having to handle personally identifiable information under the rules of the GDPR, or having some kind of professional indemnity insurance with cybersecurity provisions, perhaps having quality management certification, being in certain highly-regulated professions like law or medicine, being in the public sector, working government contracts, etc. etc. (the list goes on and on) -- I'm just finding it hard to believe that this list doesn't capture most companies. But then again, maybe, I am a member of an out-of-touch elite.

deleted 1y ago

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Gormo 1y ago

> You mention IDEs besides VS Code, Linux, and ricing as “green flags”. Those are not proxies for “being a good programmer” and they are not proxies for “being enthusiastic about programming”. They're just selecting for programmers who share your subjective preferences on matters that are the equivalent of “vi vs. emacs”. Are you sure about that? I have a strong suspicion that there may be a measurable correlation between using IDEs and other tools that aren't currently trendy/overhyped and having a stronger-than-average foundation of experience. Given that VSCode is the big, trendy IDE at the moment, doesn't using a different one indicate that a developer has, at minimum, invested some thought and effort into considering alternatives and making a conscious choice?