4 ms·

Let's restate your points a bit, but using the words "ethics" rather than CoC. Is publishing an ethical standpoint a "trouble making"? Depends, doesn't it? Wha

Let's restate your points a bit, but using the words "ethics" rather than CoC. Is publishing an ethical standpoint a "trouble making"? Depends, doesn't it? What if you examine the most common top ethical viewpoints you are aware of. For me, it's loud groups like say, PETA, Extinction Rebellion, etc who are fairly populist. Are they making trouble? Sure. But for whom? Would you personally do what these people are doing? Probably no. Would you personally do what the people they are "making trouble" for are doing? (In my example, Animal harm, empowering climate change?) I am going to suggest that you would probably say "no, I don't want to harm things/people/etc; as I would probably feel bad for doing it and being personally responsible". If thought through like this - even if your examples of ethics are not what I chose - can you see the value in a strong, clear ethical position, even if it's to warn people? Can you see that it might challenge authority (trouble making), but that is not a bad thing a lot of the time?

A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
> Let's restate your points a bit, but using the words "ethics" rather than CoC. Is publishing an ethical standpoint a "trouble making"? Most software projects are ethically neutral and don't need a "standpoint." In tech, those "ethical standpoints" are often tacked-on by people who want to use them as a tool to exercise social control over other contributors, including project founders and visionaries. (There tends to be, in any given Western organization over n people in size, a clique that's really into this.) I have no idea how CoCs are used in PETA, but obviously groups that have ethics as their core focus -- which includes religions and social welfare groups -- have long lists of proscriptions, policies, etc. I don't think that any of it necessarily applies to open-source software, though. It's apples to oranges. > If thought through like this - even if your examples of ethics are not what I chose - can you see the value in a strong, clear ethical position, even if it's to warn people? Well, that's precisely my point: The CoC itself is the warning. It's usually bad news in itself -- an exposed surface that's weaponizable against contributors who give to the project in good faith.
yakshaving_jgt 1y ago
I think you should understand quite how bad your examples are. I understand the examples you gave are given in the best of intentions, but this reads as pure blissful ignorance. PETA literally funded a terrorist convicted of arson. > A page from the 1995 annual tax return (form 990) of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), showing a $45,200 payment for the ``support committee'' of Rodney Coronado, a felon. Mr. Coronado was convicted of arson in federal court for the 1992 firebombing of a Michigan State University research lab. --- > Would you personally do what the people they are "making trouble" for are doing? Would I eat meat? Yes. Would I keep animals as pets? Yes. Do I think it's ethical for humans to use animals for service, e.g., guide dogs for the blind? Yes. Do I think it's ethical to use animal models in medical research? Yes. All of these things, PETA are against. Further: - https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/testimony/animal-rights-extremism-and-ecoterrorism https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/testimony/animal-righ... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Coronado https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Coronado - https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-107hhrg77615/html/CHRG-107hhrg77615.htm https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-107hhrg77615/html/C...
- ranger_danger 1y ago
  Can you provide sources for these claims? > animals as pets This seems to say they are perfectly fine with pets: https://www.peta.org/about-peta/why-peta/pets/ https://www.peta.org/about-peta/why-peta/pets/ > guide dogs Seems to imply they are not against service animals in general: https://www.peta.org/media/news-releases/monkeys-arent-pets-or-service-animals-peta-calls-for-gigi-nate-boycott/ https://www.peta.org/media/news-releases/monkeys-arent-pets-... Not trying to defend anyone, just looking for objective evidence.
  - yakshaving_jgt 1y ago
    > Not trying to defend anyone, just looking for objective evidence. Fair. ## guide dogs > [PETA founder Ingrid Newkirk] regards the use of Seeing Eye dogs as an abdication of human responsibility and, … is wholly opposed to their use. She has had at least one dog taken from its owner. - https://archive.is/6IIo1 https://archive.is/6IIo1 ## medical testing > Medical research is immoral even it it's essential > Even If Animal Research Resulted In A Cure For AIDS, We’d Be Against It - https://consumerfreedom.com/press-releases/153-even-if-animal-research-resulted-in-a-cure-for-aids-wed-be-against-it/ https://consumerfreedom.com/press-releases/153-even-if-anima... ## animals as pets - https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ingrid_Newkirk https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ingrid_Newkirk - https://www.naiaonline.org/articles/article/quotes-from-the-leaders-of-the-animal-rights-movement https://www.naiaonline.org/articles/article/quotes-from-the-... ## Bonus fun story - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/17/peta-sorry-for-taking-girls-dog-putting-it-down https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/17/peta-sorry-f... --- I could go on, but I think you get the picture. The utter insanity of PETA is actually very well documented, so if you have an evening, grab a bottle of wine and go down that ~rabbit~ hole.
veeti 1y ago
Extinction Rebellion is actually the perfect example, because they are a bunch of protesters so high on their own farts they think blocking ordinary commuters on electric trains will stop Big Oil [1]. And as you can see from the video, bringing this sort of shithead attitude to actual hard working folx will only backfire on you. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHOr2WH7V1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHOr2WH7V1k

A_D_E_P_T 1y ago

> Let's restate your points a bit, but using the words "ethics" rather than CoC. Is publishing an ethical standpoint a "trouble making"? Most software projects are ethically neutral and don't need a "standpoint." In tech, those "ethical standpoints" are often tacked-on by people who want to use them as a tool to exercise social control over other contributors, including project founders and visionaries. (There tends to be, in any given Western organization over n people in size, a clique that's really into this.) I have no idea how CoCs are used in PETA, but obviously groups that have ethics as their core focus -- which includes religions and social welfare groups -- have long lists of proscriptions, policies, etc. I don't think that any of it necessarily applies to open-source software, though. It's apples to oranges. > If thought through like this - even if your examples of ethics are not what I chose - can you see the value in a strong, clear ethical position, even if it's to warn people? Well, that's precisely my point: The CoC itself is the warning. It's usually bad news in itself -- an exposed surface that's weaponizable against contributors who give to the project in good faith.

yakshaving_jgt 1y ago

I think you should understand quite how bad your examples are. I understand the examples you gave are given in the best of intentions, but this reads as pure blissful ignorance. PETA literally funded a terrorist convicted of arson. > A page from the 1995 annual tax return (form 990) of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), showing a $45,200 payment for the ``support committee'' of Rodney Coronado, a felon. Mr. Coronado was convicted of arson in federal court for the 1992 firebombing of a Michigan State University research lab. --- > Would you personally do what the people they are "making trouble" for are doing? Would I eat meat? Yes. Would I keep animals as pets? Yes. Do I think it's ethical for humans to use animals for service, e.g., guide dogs for the blind? Yes. Do I think it's ethical to use animal models in medical research? Yes. All of these things, PETA are against. Further: - https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/testimony/animal-rights-extremism-and-ecoterrorism https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/testimony/animal-righ... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Coronado https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Coronado - https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-107hhrg77615/html/CHRG-107hhrg77615.htm https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-107hhrg77615/html/C...

ranger_danger 1y ago
Can you provide sources for these claims? > animals as pets This seems to say they are perfectly fine with pets: https://www.peta.org/about-peta/why-peta/pets/ https://www.peta.org/about-peta/why-peta/pets/ > guide dogs Seems to imply they are not against service animals in general: https://www.peta.org/media/news-releases/monkeys-arent-pets-or-service-animals-peta-calls-for-gigi-nate-boycott/ https://www.peta.org/media/news-releases/monkeys-arent-pets-... Not trying to defend anyone, just looking for objective evidence.
- yakshaving_jgt 1y ago
  > Not trying to defend anyone, just looking for objective evidence. Fair. ## guide dogs > [PETA founder Ingrid Newkirk] regards the use of Seeing Eye dogs as an abdication of human responsibility and, … is wholly opposed to their use. She has had at least one dog taken from its owner. - https://archive.is/6IIo1 https://archive.is/6IIo1 ## medical testing > Medical research is immoral even it it's essential > Even If Animal Research Resulted In A Cure For AIDS, We’d Be Against It - https://consumerfreedom.com/press-releases/153-even-if-animal-research-resulted-in-a-cure-for-aids-wed-be-against-it/ https://consumerfreedom.com/press-releases/153-even-if-anima... ## animals as pets - https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ingrid_Newkirk https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ingrid_Newkirk - https://www.naiaonline.org/articles/article/quotes-from-the-leaders-of-the-animal-rights-movement https://www.naiaonline.org/articles/article/quotes-from-the-... ## Bonus fun story - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/17/peta-sorry-for-taking-girls-dog-putting-it-down https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/17/peta-sorry-f... --- I could go on, but I think you get the picture. The utter insanity of PETA is actually very well documented, so if you have an evening, grab a bottle of wine and go down that ~rabbit~ hole.

veeti 1y ago

Extinction Rebellion is actually the perfect example, because they are a bunch of protesters so high on their own farts they think blocking ordinary commuters on electric trains will stop Big Oil [1]. And as you can see from the video, bringing this sort of shithead attitude to actual hard working folx will only backfire on you. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHOr2WH7V1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHOr2WH7V1k