5 ms·

> India has big population but has no good governance. As an Indian, I would dispute that. When I look back at what we were as a country, when we became indepe

> India has big population but has no good governance. As an Indian, I would dispute that. When I look back at what we were as a country, when we became independent, to what we are today, our achievements are really astounding.

HexDecOctBin 1y ago
> As an Indian, I would dispute that. Don't. It's good for us that they overestimate China and underestimate us. For the next couple decades, we need breathing room to develop; why would you destroy that space by drawing attention to yourself?
- kakacik 1y ago
  I've spent a lot of time in various parts of India backpacking around in the past. No luxury bubble somewhere on beach of Goa, rather travelling around cramped public transport, sleeping in cheap or free places, interacting only with commoners. Everybody and everything is growing, even North Korea in some aspects is. Thats called a progress and nobody interacting with rest of the world can escape that. What is unfortunately true about India, and many other similar places is the potential of the country and the people and reality where they got and how far they can reach, given their own limitations. From what I've seen, the gap (potential vs reality) is huge compared to western standards, and I don't see an easy way to push through that ceiling. Society isn't fair, its everybody for themselves. Castes are very much a thing still, absolutely horrible and deplorable thing (while this will be read mostly by brahmins or rich merchant castes who rarely see an issue there, so I don't expect much sympathy here). Corruption is abysmal. Women and minority rights are questionable at best. No doubt great and important things will improve in upcoming decades. But in 21st century India will not resemble ie western Europe in any meaningful way, I just don't see a way. Real India is not some Bangalore or Pune bubble, its very opposite of it.
  - HexDecOctBin 1y ago
    Yes, I agree. Which is why you should convince your politicians to forget about puny worthless India and focus all their antagonism towards the great mighty China only. Thank you.
    - kakacik 1y ago
      Nobody in Europe considers India an antagonist, unless they will align hard themselves with russia, which would be a tremendously stupid move from any logical angle. And China... its doing its own superpower things. I get why US is scared of prospect of having an actually worthy peer for a change with very different values, but thats not a main concern for Europe. putin and his FUBAR russia is and will be, all focus and energy goes there as it should. Unless US is going to properly help with that instead of licking various orifices of your own sworn enemy while it spits on you, we leave China to you guys (which just wants to sell their cheap EVs and other stuff here, hardly an evil plan we should lose sleep about right now).
- Vinnl 1y ago
  "India used to be developing at a rapid pace, but then this person on Hacker News gave it all away."
supermatt 1y ago
The parent has no clue what they are talking about, so I wouldn't take it to heart. Its pretty hard to deny that India is a global powerhouse.
- timcobb 1y ago
  No offense but in what non commodity industries is India a powerhouse? Here in the US I never see things made in India, and was just yesterday wondering how India compares to China. I could do some research, but I'm wondering why you think of India as a powerhouse?
  - atypeoferror 1y ago
    Well, pharmaceutical manufacturing for one: > India is the world's largest provider of generic medicines by volume, with a 20% share of total global pharmaceutical exports. It is also the largest vaccine supplier in the world by volume, accounting for more than 60% of all vaccines manufactured in the world. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_industry_in_India https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_industry_in_I... This I am less certain on, but I believe there is a fairly robust space program (not many countries have that). I’m sure there is more.
  - supermatt 1y ago
    Being an economic powerhouse doesn't mean being visible on shop shelves. In Europe you very rarely see consumer goods labelled "Made in USA" (although we will frequently see products that are "Made in India"), yet the US is still an economic powerhouse because its strengths are in services, tech, finance, aerospace, and defence rather than mass-market manufacturing. India is similar with most of its global impact through IT, software, generic pharmaceuticals, and space tech. Its the 4th largest economy in the world, and among the fastest growing - potentially surpassing Germany for 3rd place by 2030. India is also the 2nd largest exporter of food in the world, and among the largest textile exporters (clothing, etc) - but for some reason you wanted to exclude commodities.
    - forgotoldacc 1y ago
spacebanana7 1y ago
India's economic development is centred on a narrow cone of progress around IT services/outsourcing/migration and the spending power that creates a set for consumers and government projects. It's not comparable to the broad based productivity gains which happened in China or the UK across every industry as they developed, from agriculture to manufacturing to services. Instead it's much more like the Norwegian or Saudi hydrocarbon economies but with human capital exports.
- decimalenough 1y ago
  I can buy the argument for Saudi, but the Norwegian economy is surprisingly diversified, oil makes up only around 4% of it. (Although it's proportionally a much larger share of exports and government revenue.)
- advisedwang 1y ago
  > India's economic development is centred on a narrow cone of progress around IT services/outsourcing/migration and the spending power that creates a set for consumers and government projects. That's simply not true. India is making steel, pharmaceuticals, textiles, cars, movies, you name it.
  - spacebanana7 1y ago
    North Korea also produces all of those things. Merely producing something doesn’t mean much.
- theuppermiddle 1y ago
  That is such a naive view. IT/outsourcing makes up less than 8% of the GDP. Compared to that, industrial sector make up almost 30% and agriculture 20%. Just because IT services catch the news cycle does not mean that is the only thing India does.
  - spacebanana7 1y ago
    Industry makes up 46% of Saudi Arabian GDP. Such figures can be a misleading way to characterise an economy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Saudi_Arabia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Saudi_Arabia
bluGill 1y ago
What you have achieved is astounding. However I agree that you don't have good governance, it isn't the worst by any means, but it is still pretty bad in ways. It has been getting better, and that is something I hope you keep working on - the world needs more good governance. BTW, while I would call the US or EU better, both have very significant governance issues that they need to work on. This shouldn't be seen as a game of who is better it should be seen as a game of how can I improve, looking at others only to see what areas they are better you can copy, and what areas they are worse you can avoid. Since I live in the US that is where I focus most of my efforts, and I'm constantly stopped by people who have their heart in the right place but are doing something that because of complex factors they refuse to acknowledge is worse than what we have now. I'm also constantly being informed of something I didn't think of and having to readjust what I advocate for. If you are not in the same situation you are making things worse!

HexDecOctBin 1y ago

> As an Indian, I would dispute that. Don't. It's good for us that they overestimate China and underestimate us. For the next couple decades, we need breathing room to develop; why would you destroy that space by drawing attention to yourself?

kakacik 1y ago
I've spent a lot of time in various parts of India backpacking around in the past. No luxury bubble somewhere on beach of Goa, rather travelling around cramped public transport, sleeping in cheap or free places, interacting only with commoners. Everybody and everything is growing, even North Korea in some aspects is. Thats called a progress and nobody interacting with rest of the world can escape that. What is unfortunately true about India, and many other similar places is the potential of the country and the people and reality where they got and how far they can reach, given their own limitations. From what I've seen, the gap (potential vs reality) is huge compared to western standards, and I don't see an easy way to push through that ceiling. Society isn't fair, its everybody for themselves. Castes are very much a thing still, absolutely horrible and deplorable thing (while this will be read mostly by brahmins or rich merchant castes who rarely see an issue there, so I don't expect much sympathy here). Corruption is abysmal. Women and minority rights are questionable at best. No doubt great and important things will improve in upcoming decades. But in 21st century India will not resemble ie western Europe in any meaningful way, I just don't see a way. Real India is not some Bangalore or Pune bubble, its very opposite of it.
- HexDecOctBin 1y ago
  Yes, I agree. Which is why you should convince your politicians to forget about puny worthless India and focus all their antagonism towards the great mighty China only. Thank you.
  - kakacik 1y ago
    Nobody in Europe considers India an antagonist, unless they will align hard themselves with russia, which would be a tremendously stupid move from any logical angle. And China... its doing its own superpower things. I get why US is scared of prospect of having an actually worthy peer for a change with very different values, but thats not a main concern for Europe. putin and his FUBAR russia is and will be, all focus and energy goes there as it should. Unless US is going to properly help with that instead of licking various orifices of your own sworn enemy while it spits on you, we leave China to you guys (which just wants to sell their cheap EVs and other stuff here, hardly an evil plan we should lose sleep about right now).
Vinnl 1y ago
"India used to be developing at a rapid pace, but then this person on Hacker News gave it all away."

supermatt 1y ago

The parent has no clue what they are talking about, so I wouldn't take it to heart. Its pretty hard to deny that India is a global powerhouse.

timcobb 1y ago
No offense but in what non commodity industries is India a powerhouse? Here in the US I never see things made in India, and was just yesterday wondering how India compares to China. I could do some research, but I'm wondering why you think of India as a powerhouse?
- atypeoferror 1y ago
  Well, pharmaceutical manufacturing for one: > India is the world's largest provider of generic medicines by volume, with a 20% share of total global pharmaceutical exports. It is also the largest vaccine supplier in the world by volume, accounting for more than 60% of all vaccines manufactured in the world. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_industry_in_India https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_industry_in_I... This I am less certain on, but I believe there is a fairly robust space program (not many countries have that). I’m sure there is more.
- supermatt 1y ago
  Being an economic powerhouse doesn't mean being visible on shop shelves. In Europe you very rarely see consumer goods labelled "Made in USA" (although we will frequently see products that are "Made in India"), yet the US is still an economic powerhouse because its strengths are in services, tech, finance, aerospace, and defence rather than mass-market manufacturing. India is similar with most of its global impact through IT, software, generic pharmaceuticals, and space tech. Its the 4th largest economy in the world, and among the fastest growing - potentially surpassing Germany for 3rd place by 2030. India is also the 2nd largest exporter of food in the world, and among the largest textile exporters (clothing, etc) - but for some reason you wanted to exclude commodities.
  - forgotoldacc 1y ago

spacebanana7 1y ago

India's economic development is centred on a narrow cone of progress around IT services/outsourcing/migration and the spending power that creates a set for consumers and government projects. It's not comparable to the broad based productivity gains which happened in China or the UK across every industry as they developed, from agriculture to manufacturing to services. Instead it's much more like the Norwegian or Saudi hydrocarbon economies but with human capital exports.

decimalenough 1y ago
I can buy the argument for Saudi, but the Norwegian economy is surprisingly diversified, oil makes up only around 4% of it. (Although it's proportionally a much larger share of exports and government revenue.)
advisedwang 1y ago
> India's economic development is centred on a narrow cone of progress around IT services/outsourcing/migration and the spending power that creates a set for consumers and government projects. That's simply not true. India is making steel, pharmaceuticals, textiles, cars, movies, you name it.
- spacebanana7 1y ago
  North Korea also produces all of those things. Merely producing something doesn’t mean much.
theuppermiddle 1y ago
That is such a naive view. IT/outsourcing makes up less than 8% of the GDP. Compared to that, industrial sector make up almost 30% and agriculture 20%. Just because IT services catch the news cycle does not mean that is the only thing India does.
- spacebanana7 1y ago
  Industry makes up 46% of Saudi Arabian GDP. Such figures can be a misleading way to characterise an economy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Saudi_Arabia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Saudi_Arabia

bluGill 1y ago

What you have achieved is astounding. However I agree that you don't have good governance, it isn't the worst by any means, but it is still pretty bad in ways. It has been getting better, and that is something I hope you keep working on - the world needs more good governance. BTW, while I would call the US or EU better, both have very significant governance issues that they need to work on. This shouldn't be seen as a game of who is better it should be seen as a game of how can I improve, looking at others only to see what areas they are better you can copy, and what areas they are worse you can avoid. Since I live in the US that is where I focus most of my efforts, and I'm constantly stopped by people who have their heart in the right place but are doing something that because of complex factors they refuse to acknowledge is worse than what we have now. I'm also constantly being informed of something I didn't think of and having to readjust what I advocate for. If you are not in the same situation you are making things worse!