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I think both engineering and sales take the customer for granted. Engineering often views their role as taking in specs and outputting product with little rega

I think both engineering and sales take the customer for granted. Engineering often views their role as taking in specs and outputting product with little regard to whether or not the product is actually worth buying. Sales views customers as a resource to exploit rather than an entity to serve. Both sides have gotten so far and lazy from American hegemony that it’s no surprise China has usurped the US.

fluoridation 1y ago
When that's true, I don't think that's the fault of either of those divisions. The job of one is to build things, and the job of the other is to sell things, and that's it. Considering and analyzing the customer's needs would probably fall under R&D or market research, and piping those findings into other divisions would have to be the job of leadership. So in other words, if a company is making and selling things nobody wants, it's the fault of the decision makers.
palmotea 1y ago
> Both sides have gotten so far and lazy from American hegemony that it’s no surprise China has usurped the US. China has usurped the US because a handful of businessmen decided to personally make money over several decades by basically exporting capability and know-how for modest short-term profits, and the Chinese government was far-sighted enough to help them and make sure they got the better end of the bargain (over the long term). The lazy and incompetent western worker trope is just BS to justify this destructive enrichment strategy.
- hippo22 1y ago
  Of course, profit motivated offshoring is a cause of the current situation. But it feels a little revisionist to attribute that as the _only_ cause. Culturally, the country derided blue collar work for a long time. The fact that everyone should attend college and strive for white collar work was unquestioned orthodoxy. Ultimately, this cultural mindset led to the commoditization of society. Everything was a resource to be managed and optimized. Efficiency was paramount. And this viewpoint wasn’t just espoused by the capitalist class, it was shared by our “brightest” academic minds. Nobel laureate economists (e.g. Paul Krugman) told the public how great globalization would be because it increased economic efficiency. What was missed in all this is that not everything is a resource that can be managed in a spreadsheet, CRM, or JIRA tracker. Delivering value is an art. It requires skills honed through practice and taste that comes from appreciation of craft. Culturally, we’ve lost appreciation for the process of creation. We want to be fat and lazy and do our “important” jobs and get paid. But that won’t work for long.
  - palmotea 1y ago
    > Of course, profit motivated offshoring is a cause of the current situation. But it feels a little revisionist to attribute that as the _only_ cause. > Culturally, the country derided blue collar work for a long time. The fact that everyone should attend college and strive for white collar work was unquestioned orthodoxy. I'd bet much of that attitude (at least in the masses) was driven by offshoring. Why go into blue collar work when sooner or later the plant's going to get sent overseas? If you're selling offshoring, you've got to weaken the opposition by denigrating the assets you're sending a way, and you've gotta offer some glimmer of hope to the people you're disrupting (and that hope can he a college degree and a white collar job). > Ultimately, this cultural mindset led to the commoditization of society. Everything was a resource to be managed and optimized. Efficiency was paramount. And this viewpoint wasn’t just espoused by the capitalist class, it was shared by our “brightest” academic minds. Nobel laureate economists (e.g. Paul Krugman) told the public how great globalization would be because it increased economic efficiency. Personally, I consider those guys to be the businessmen's lackeys.
    - hippo22 1y ago
      Sure, if you choose to assume everything follows from your belief, then of course you’ll find yourself correct! Just a counterpoint, the federal government started guaranteeing student loans in the 60s. There was clearly a pre-offshoring push for a more educated populace.

fluoridation 1y ago

When that's true, I don't think that's the fault of either of those divisions. The job of one is to build things, and the job of the other is to sell things, and that's it. Considering and analyzing the customer's needs would probably fall under R&D or market research, and piping those findings into other divisions would have to be the job of leadership. So in other words, if a company is making and selling things nobody wants, it's the fault of the decision makers.

palmotea 1y ago

> Both sides have gotten so far and lazy from American hegemony that it’s no surprise China has usurped the US. China has usurped the US because a handful of businessmen decided to personally make money over several decades by basically exporting capability and know-how for modest short-term profits, and the Chinese government was far-sighted enough to help them and make sure they got the better end of the bargain (over the long term). The lazy and incompetent western worker trope is just BS to justify this destructive enrichment strategy.

hippo22 1y ago
Of course, profit motivated offshoring is a cause of the current situation. But it feels a little revisionist to attribute that as the _only_ cause. Culturally, the country derided blue collar work for a long time. The fact that everyone should attend college and strive for white collar work was unquestioned orthodoxy. Ultimately, this cultural mindset led to the commoditization of society. Everything was a resource to be managed and optimized. Efficiency was paramount. And this viewpoint wasn’t just espoused by the capitalist class, it was shared by our “brightest” academic minds. Nobel laureate economists (e.g. Paul Krugman) told the public how great globalization would be because it increased economic efficiency. What was missed in all this is that not everything is a resource that can be managed in a spreadsheet, CRM, or JIRA tracker. Delivering value is an art. It requires skills honed through practice and taste that comes from appreciation of craft. Culturally, we’ve lost appreciation for the process of creation. We want to be fat and lazy and do our “important” jobs and get paid. But that won’t work for long.
- palmotea 1y ago
  > Of course, profit motivated offshoring is a cause of the current situation. But it feels a little revisionist to attribute that as the _only_ cause. > Culturally, the country derided blue collar work for a long time. The fact that everyone should attend college and strive for white collar work was unquestioned orthodoxy. I'd bet much of that attitude (at least in the masses) was driven by offshoring. Why go into blue collar work when sooner or later the plant's going to get sent overseas? If you're selling offshoring, you've got to weaken the opposition by denigrating the assets you're sending a way, and you've gotta offer some glimmer of hope to the people you're disrupting (and that hope can he a college degree and a white collar job). > Ultimately, this cultural mindset led to the commoditization of society. Everything was a resource to be managed and optimized. Efficiency was paramount. And this viewpoint wasn’t just espoused by the capitalist class, it was shared by our “brightest” academic minds. Nobel laureate economists (e.g. Paul Krugman) told the public how great globalization would be because it increased economic efficiency. Personally, I consider those guys to be the businessmen's lackeys.
  - hippo22 1y ago
    Sure, if you choose to assume everything follows from your belief, then of course you’ll find yourself correct! Just a counterpoint, the federal government started guaranteeing student loans in the 60s. There was clearly a pre-offshoring push for a more educated populace.