3 ms·

Is this like a dig? Does anyone disagree that manual is much more fun?

cmrdporcupine 1y ago
20 years ago, sure. Now if you want fun torque you drive electric and blink with confusion at manual-snobs. I learned on stick and I still feel a nostalgic appeal, sure. I test drove a used hothatch Volvo C30 T5 Polestar edition last fall before ultimately settling on an electric performance car (Polestar 2) to feed my midlife indulgences. And I have to admit a certain ... thrill... from the turbo lag and the process of shifting. But it all seems a bit silly when compared to instant torque at any RPM.
- Klonoar 1y ago
  Manual snobs are a tiring bunch, it's not an inherently better transmission or way to drive. That said, instant torque isn't really that special and feels like a novelty after the first few times you've floored it. When an EV actually has a suspension setup and overall weight that doesn't feel like I'm piloting a boat at sea, then I'll probably care. Porsche & co seem like they're still aiming for it so I've got some hope we get there.
  - reddit_clone 1y ago
    Speaking of snobs, I have had multiple arguments with Automatic snobs, who think I am a bit thick for still driving a manual. They refuse to take 'I do it because I like it' as an answer.
    - Klonoar 1y ago
      I mean that's weird - "I do it because I like it" is, IME, the answer that makes everyone drop the discussion. Personal preference is the most valid reason, lol
      - reddit_clone 1y ago
        You would think! But people seem to take offense if someone doesn't follow what is common wisdom (according to them) !
afavour 1y ago
I think you can over examine metaphors like this but yeah, driving manual is more fun when you’re going on a fun drive. When you’re commuting in start stop traffic… less fun. (and in this scenario you’re also usually sharing the car with other people so driving automatic would make everyone’s lives easier)
shae 1y ago
I suspect the H pattern they mean is where the gear shift is on the steering column, not on the floor. I long ago owned a 1945 Dodge truck with that shifting setup.
- Klonoar 1y ago
  Nope, but I appreciate the effort. I threw the H-pattern reference in there without thinking about it too much mostly to differentiate the reference from situations where you're shifting but it's not with a lever. (I've been stuck on planes for 20 hours with little sleep, so ignore it if it doesn't make too much sense lol)
chuckadams 1y ago
Not fun in San Francisco rush hour traffic on Russian Hill.
- reddit_clone 1y ago
  Lol yes. I almost had a panic attack driving an _automatic_ up Lombard. (Sadly an old minivan with bad-lish tires). In stop and go traffic (is there any other traffic in SFO?) it moved so much backwards and spun so hard every time I tried to move forward/upward.. I swore never to return. I haven't been back on that road since.
saghm 1y ago
This seems like a bit of selection bias; people who learn it are more likely to be the type who anticipate enjoying it, and people who don't find learning it appealing probably wouldn't enjoy it if they did. I haven't driven in over a decade partially due to disliking it, and I have to assume that I'd dislike driving manual even more.
nielsbot 1y ago
I get your point and I like driving a manual car, but there’s a reason the whole world has switched to automatic
- noworriesnate 1y ago
  There's essentially no learning curve moving from manual to automatic. But moving from C/C++ to Rust, there's a big learning curve.
  - nielsbot 1y ago
    So not the perfect analogy--my point is the "manual" version isn't always better than the "automatic" version. For one thing, manual transmissions require physical activity and coordination. That's not true with programming languages...
- reddit_clone 1y ago
  Perhaps not always for the better? People eating, drinking and using mobile phones .. I think the luxury of having a hand free with automatic transmission is a contributing factor. Stick shift requires a certain level of attention/engagement that might actually make for safer driving IMO.
  - nielsbot 1y ago
    I mean it's an analogy, so it's not directly the original comparison. I hate C++ but I concede it's possible to get the most performance from C++ if you are diligent. My argument there would be: Ok, use C++ and C (or even machine code) for the most performance sensitive parts, but then use a safer easier language everywhere else.
    - reddit_clone 1y ago
      I am sorry, I was only thinking about the analogy and not the original topic :-) As a motorcycle rider, inattentive car drivers are a sore subject. As for C++, I agree with your last comment. I guess without the gravitation pull of a large existing C++ code base or an existing team of experts or as essential library, there is not much incentive to start new projects in C++. I too am a firm believer in multiple layers, each possibly using different language/paradigm. I find the functional core with controlled and imperative edges approach very appealing.
Klonoar 1y ago
Fun isn't the point, and it's not (necessarily) a dig. I drive a manual transmission car as my daily driver. I enjoy it. I would never try to say it's better than a modern automatic, though - because that would be wholly incorrect at this point by any objective measure. I'm noting that C++ vs Rust is basically this: every article that someone writes which goes over "we're still choosing C++" has the same vibe as people who choose manual transmissions in 2025. There's no real reason to do so at this point, other than if you want to.
- cmrdporcupine 1y ago
  Nah there are plenty of embedded contexts where you're only going to have an SDK for C/C++. I worked on one recently.
  - Klonoar 1y ago
    These will be slowly eaten by Rust, but sure, we can agree that there might be a small carve-out for that sector of software. It's not a hill I'm willing to die on.
whizzter 1y ago
Think of it as, I'm a good driver and like fun so i chose a manual Ferrari as one of two family cars, then I borrow the car to one of my kids (junior dev) that doesn't have experience with high powered manual cars and crashes.

20 years ago, sure. Now if you want fun torque you drive electric and blink with confusion at manual-snobs. I learned on stick and I still feel a nostalgic appeal, sure. I test drove a used hothatch Volvo C30 T5 Polestar edition last fall before ultimately settling on an electric performance car (Polestar 2) to feed my midlife indulgences. And I have to admit a certain ... thrill... from the turbo lag and the process of shifting. But it all seems a bit silly when compared to instant torque at any RPM.

Klonoar 1y ago
Manual snobs are a tiring bunch, it's not an inherently better transmission or way to drive. That said, instant torque isn't really that special and feels like a novelty after the first few times you've floored it. When an EV actually has a suspension setup and overall weight that doesn't feel like I'm piloting a boat at sea, then I'll probably care. Porsche & co seem like they're still aiming for it so I've got some hope we get there.
- reddit_clone 1y ago
  Speaking of snobs, I have had multiple arguments with Automatic snobs, who think I am a bit thick for still driving a manual. They refuse to take 'I do it because I like it' as an answer.
  - Klonoar 1y ago
    I mean that's weird - "I do it because I like it" is, IME, the answer that makes everyone drop the discussion. Personal preference is the most valid reason, lol
    - reddit_clone 1y ago
      You would think! But people seem to take offense if someone doesn't follow what is common wisdom (according to them) !

afavour 1y ago

I think you can over examine metaphors like this but yeah, driving manual is more fun when you’re going on a fun drive. When you’re commuting in start stop traffic… less fun. (and in this scenario you’re also usually sharing the car with other people so driving automatic would make everyone’s lives easier)

shae 1y ago

I suspect the H pattern they mean is where the gear shift is on the steering column, not on the floor. I long ago owned a 1945 Dodge truck with that shifting setup.

Klonoar 1y ago
Nope, but I appreciate the effort. I threw the H-pattern reference in there without thinking about it too much mostly to differentiate the reference from situations where you're shifting but it's not with a lever. (I've been stuck on planes for 20 hours with little sleep, so ignore it if it doesn't make too much sense lol)

chuckadams 1y ago

Not fun in San Francisco rush hour traffic on Russian Hill.

reddit_clone 1y ago
Lol yes. I almost had a panic attack driving an _automatic_ up Lombard. (Sadly an old minivan with bad-lish tires). In stop and go traffic (is there any other traffic in SFO?) it moved so much backwards and spun so hard every time I tried to move forward/upward.. I swore never to return. I haven't been back on that road since.

saghm 1y ago

This seems like a bit of selection bias; people who learn it are more likely to be the type who anticipate enjoying it, and people who don't find learning it appealing probably wouldn't enjoy it if they did. I haven't driven in over a decade partially due to disliking it, and I have to assume that I'd dislike driving manual even more.

nielsbot 1y ago

I get your point and I like driving a manual car, but there’s a reason the whole world has switched to automatic

noworriesnate 1y ago
There's essentially no learning curve moving from manual to automatic. But moving from C/C++ to Rust, there's a big learning curve.
- nielsbot 1y ago
  So not the perfect analogy--my point is the "manual" version isn't always better than the "automatic" version. For one thing, manual transmissions require physical activity and coordination. That's not true with programming languages...
reddit_clone 1y ago
Perhaps not always for the better? People eating, drinking and using mobile phones .. I think the luxury of having a hand free with automatic transmission is a contributing factor. Stick shift requires a certain level of attention/engagement that might actually make for safer driving IMO.
- nielsbot 1y ago
  I mean it's an analogy, so it's not directly the original comparison. I hate C++ but I concede it's possible to get the most performance from C++ if you are diligent. My argument there would be: Ok, use C++ and C (or even machine code) for the most performance sensitive parts, but then use a safer easier language everywhere else.
  - reddit_clone 1y ago
    I am sorry, I was only thinking about the analogy and not the original topic :-) As a motorcycle rider, inattentive car drivers are a sore subject. As for C++, I agree with your last comment. I guess without the gravitation pull of a large existing C++ code base or an existing team of experts or as essential library, there is not much incentive to start new projects in C++. I too am a firm believer in multiple layers, each possibly using different language/paradigm. I find the functional core with controlled and imperative edges approach very appealing.

Klonoar 1y ago

Fun isn't the point, and it's not (necessarily) a dig. I drive a manual transmission car as my daily driver. I enjoy it. I would never try to say it's better than a modern automatic, though - because that would be wholly incorrect at this point by any objective measure. I'm noting that C++ vs Rust is basically this: every article that someone writes which goes over "we're still choosing C++" has the same vibe as people who choose manual transmissions in 2025. There's no real reason to do so at this point, other than if you want to.

cmrdporcupine 1y ago
Nah there are plenty of embedded contexts where you're only going to have an SDK for C/C++. I worked on one recently.
- Klonoar 1y ago
  These will be slowly eaten by Rust, but sure, we can agree that there might be a small carve-out for that sector of software. It's not a hill I'm willing to die on.

whizzter 1y ago

Think of it as, I'm a good driver and like fun so i chose a manual Ferrari as one of two family cars, then I borrow the car to one of my kids (junior dev) that doesn't have experience with high powered manual cars and crashes.