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But what practical difference does it have that it's "available via digital media to the world."? Are you just opposed to people not in your physical location s

But what practical difference does it have that it's "available via digital media to the world."? Are you just opposed to people not in your physical location seeing you? Why?

sandblast 1y ago
I think it's similar to the difference between "the cop watching me when I'm near them and are aware of it" and "the cop watching me all the time, wherever I go and I can't know anything about this" (which would be impossible before cameras).
nemomarx 1y ago
There's a clear difference in scale between "people who also go to a private airsoft meetup with me will see me" and "the entire global population can see me", right?
- haskellshill 1y ago
  Okay, and? There's a difference between one person seeing me in public and two, but no meaningful difference
  - detaro 1y ago
    Depends who the second person is. And of course we are in an age where companies pride themselves into hovering up as much "public" data as they can find, analyze it and sell it to whoever wants it, so "find every photo or video this face is in" could lead to quite a detailed profile depending on how often this happens. Scale matters. (Similarly to how "we have license plates on cars to identify them if needed" is a thing and basically nobody complains that I can see your license plate when I walk past your car or write it down if needed, but thousands or millions of cameras recording all traffic and logging plates are something people are concerned about, even if its completely legal in some places) What was that Larry Ellison quote that came up again over the weekend? EDIT: or to bring a specific real-world example: A friend of mine does classes at a local studio that also offers martial arts courses, and some of the local right-wing bubble has gotten it in their head that this has to be "antifa combat training" and keeps screaming that this needs to be monitored. The current local government has been ignoring them, but a lot of people are probably quite happy now that there isn't an easy-to-get public record of who was there and "needs a visit" just because some influencer needed to film her dance lessons.
    - haskellshill 1y ago
      So your specific real world example is that nothing happened, but IF somebody had filmed them then you IMAGINE they would have "gotten a visit". Very specific and real world.
tietjens 1y ago
I feel that there is a difference between being in the public sphere of the community one exists in, and being in a public sphere that is global and free of any context. Lots of questions pop up when I try to follow that line of thought.
- haskellshill 1y ago
  Questions such as?
tmm 1y ago
The difference is being seen in public is ephemeral and being recorded in public is eternal. In the former, your actions exist in fallible human memories for a short while at most; in the latter there is a permanent digital record of you, geotagged and time stamped and available for perfect recall forever.
- haskellshill 1y ago
  And that's bad because?
  - mnbpdx 1y ago
    Regardless, it's not what humans are used to, culturally, or in our recent human evolution. Lol maybe I don't disagree that it's a lizard thing. But then why would you force a thing on lizards that they don't like? Even if you're right, and we all just should be comfortable with being seen by the internet when we're in any semi-public space, you can't expect human brains and culture to change on a dime, and you should expect weird effects. Side note, this is a spectrum, not like a black and white thing. Semi-public is a thing, why not let it still be a thing
pseidemann 1y ago
There are a number of reasons, including: - I see who sees me, a digital copy breaks this symmetry - Recordings may be stored indefinitely, searched through, used for things I can't even imagine today - In a local environment a specific behavior might be normal or accepted while in some other cultures it is not. This conflict is bound to happen etc.
- haskellshill 1y ago
  > used for things I can't even imagine today So why worry about it? It's like worrying a camera will "capture your soul" or whatever the story about those tribesmen is. > a local environment a specific behavior might be normal or accepted while in some other cultures it is not Do you actually have an example of this or is this yet another hypothetical?
  - pseidemann 1y ago
    > Do you actually have an example of this or is this yet another hypothetical? Some political view in Region A is wildly unaccepted in Region B, thus making them "enemies". See recent conflicts globally.
    - haskellshill 1y ago
      How's that relevant at all? Are you arguing that it's good to be ignorant of the views in other countries? Should we hide the fact that it's illegal to convert from Islam in Iran, because that might reflect poorly on them?
      - pseidemann 1y ago
        It's relevant e.g. when traveling, when working with international people/companies, or any authority for that matter, which might check your online presence. This is already happening today. People are getting detained for having opinions (both humanist or egocentric) online.
t-3 1y ago
There's a world of difference. I know the people in my local community and they know me. We speak the same dialects and use the same slang. Nobody is going to take some off-color idiom the wrong way or judge me for poor grammar or enunciation. I know who the whackjobs are and don't need to interact with them or watch my speech to avoid triggering them and dealing with ensuing harassment, threats, violence.
- haskellshill 1y ago
  You're afraid of threats and violence because they judge you for poor grammar? Okay...
ImPostingOnHN 1y ago
I'm not a fan of my out-of-the-home activities all being stored in an online database accessible to billions of people and automatically scanned by several different governments (including a list of foreign countries extensive enough to include at least one you wish it didn't, regardless of who you are) to build a profile of every person, from hobbies to schedule to gait recognition to psychographic profile. But of course, that ship has sailed in much of the world, with the ubiquity of surveillance and the dearth of opposition.
- haskellshill 1y ago
  I think you imagine governments as being a lot more capable and interested in you than they really are. You haven't even told me what you think they'll actually do with that dreaded database, except keep it.
  - ImPostingOnHN 1y ago
    I can confirm that you do indeed think the thing you said you think. Also, you have correctly noted that I did not say that second thing (since nobody has asked me to). Good job, 2/2 accuracy, would chat again.

But what practical difference does it have that it's "available via digital media to the world."? Are you just opposed to people not in your physical location seeing you? Why?

sandblast 1y ago

I think it's similar to the difference between "the cop watching me when I'm near them and are aware of it" and "the cop watching me all the time, wherever I go and I can't know anything about this" (which would be impossible before cameras).

nemomarx 1y ago

There's a clear difference in scale between "people who also go to a private airsoft meetup with me will see me" and "the entire global population can see me", right?

haskellshill 1y ago
Okay, and? There's a difference between one person seeing me in public and two, but no meaningful difference
- detaro 1y ago
  Depends who the second person is. And of course we are in an age where companies pride themselves into hovering up as much "public" data as they can find, analyze it and sell it to whoever wants it, so "find every photo or video this face is in" could lead to quite a detailed profile depending on how often this happens. Scale matters. (Similarly to how "we have license plates on cars to identify them if needed" is a thing and basically nobody complains that I can see your license plate when I walk past your car or write it down if needed, but thousands or millions of cameras recording all traffic and logging plates are something people are concerned about, even if its completely legal in some places) What was that Larry Ellison quote that came up again over the weekend? EDIT: or to bring a specific real-world example: A friend of mine does classes at a local studio that also offers martial arts courses, and some of the local right-wing bubble has gotten it in their head that this has to be "antifa combat training" and keeps screaming that this needs to be monitored. The current local government has been ignoring them, but a lot of people are probably quite happy now that there isn't an easy-to-get public record of who was there and "needs a visit" just because some influencer needed to film her dance lessons.
  - haskellshill 1y ago
    So your specific real world example is that nothing happened, but IF somebody had filmed them then you IMAGINE they would have "gotten a visit". Very specific and real world.

tietjens 1y ago

I feel that there is a difference between being in the public sphere of the community one exists in, and being in a public sphere that is global and free of any context. Lots of questions pop up when I try to follow that line of thought.

haskellshill 1y ago
Questions such as?

tmm 1y ago

The difference is being seen in public is ephemeral and being recorded in public is eternal. In the former, your actions exist in fallible human memories for a short while at most; in the latter there is a permanent digital record of you, geotagged and time stamped and available for perfect recall forever.

haskellshill 1y ago
And that's bad because?
- mnbpdx 1y ago
  Regardless, it's not what humans are used to, culturally, or in our recent human evolution. Lol maybe I don't disagree that it's a lizard thing. But then why would you force a thing on lizards that they don't like? Even if you're right, and we all just should be comfortable with being seen by the internet when we're in any semi-public space, you can't expect human brains and culture to change on a dime, and you should expect weird effects. Side note, this is a spectrum, not like a black and white thing. Semi-public is a thing, why not let it still be a thing

pseidemann 1y ago

There are a number of reasons, including: - I see who sees me, a digital copy breaks this symmetry - Recordings may be stored indefinitely, searched through, used for things I can't even imagine today - In a local environment a specific behavior might be normal or accepted while in some other cultures it is not. This conflict is bound to happen etc.

haskellshill 1y ago
> used for things I can't even imagine today So why worry about it? It's like worrying a camera will "capture your soul" or whatever the story about those tribesmen is. > a local environment a specific behavior might be normal or accepted while in some other cultures it is not Do you actually have an example of this or is this yet another hypothetical?
- pseidemann 1y ago
  > Do you actually have an example of this or is this yet another hypothetical? Some political view in Region A is wildly unaccepted in Region B, thus making them "enemies". See recent conflicts globally.
  - haskellshill 1y ago
    How's that relevant at all? Are you arguing that it's good to be ignorant of the views in other countries? Should we hide the fact that it's illegal to convert from Islam in Iran, because that might reflect poorly on them?
    - pseidemann 1y ago
      It's relevant e.g. when traveling, when working with international people/companies, or any authority for that matter, which might check your online presence. This is already happening today. People are getting detained for having opinions (both humanist or egocentric) online.

t-3 1y ago

There's a world of difference. I know the people in my local community and they know me. We speak the same dialects and use the same slang. Nobody is going to take some off-color idiom the wrong way or judge me for poor grammar or enunciation. I know who the whackjobs are and don't need to interact with them or watch my speech to avoid triggering them and dealing with ensuing harassment, threats, violence.

haskellshill 1y ago
You're afraid of threats and violence because they judge you for poor grammar? Okay...

ImPostingOnHN 1y ago

I'm not a fan of my out-of-the-home activities all being stored in an online database accessible to billions of people and automatically scanned by several different governments (including a list of foreign countries extensive enough to include at least one you wish it didn't, regardless of who you are) to build a profile of every person, from hobbies to schedule to gait recognition to psychographic profile. But of course, that ship has sailed in much of the world, with the ubiquity of surveillance and the dearth of opposition.

haskellshill 1y ago
I think you imagine governments as being a lot more capable and interested in you than they really are. You haven't even told me what you think they'll actually do with that dreaded database, except keep it.
- ImPostingOnHN 1y ago
  I can confirm that you do indeed think the thing you said you think. Also, you have correctly noted that I did not say that second thing (since nobody has asked me to). Good job, 2/2 accuracy, would chat again.