5 ms·

I think there is a problem of incentive here. When we made our websites Search Engine Optimized, the incentive was for google to understand our content, and bri

I think there is a problem of incentive here. When we made our websites Search Engine Optimized, the incentive was for google to understand our content, and bring traffic our way. When you make your content optimized for LLM, it only improves their product, and you get nothing in return.

skeptrune 1y ago
This isn't true. ChatGPT and Gemini link to sites in a similar way to how search engines have always done it. You can see the traffic show up in ahrefs or semrush.
- nozzlegear 1y ago
  I had a call with a new user for a SaaS product that I sell recently. During the call he mentioned that he found it by typing what he was looking for into Gemini, and it recommended my app. I don't do anything special for llms, and the public-facing part of the website has been neglected for longer than I like to admit, so I was delighted. I had never considered that AI could send new users to me rather than pull them away. It felt like I'd hacked the system somehow, skipped through all the SEO best practices of yesteryear and had this benevolent bullshit machine bestow a new user on me at the cost of nothing.
  - skeptrune 1y ago
    Exactly! It can actually be a positive thing, might as well make it easy for LLMs to read.
  - hahnbee 1y ago
    > benevolent bullshit machine bestow a new user on me at the cost of nothing that's awesome. i love this line.
- gl-prod 1y ago
  How many users do actually visit these links?
  - bastawhiz 1y ago
    I usually do, as a data point.
  - Larrikin 1y ago
    I've found it's extremely important to, because you will get some results that are already AI slop optimized to show in LLM research searches.
- foxfired 1y ago
  Yes, they show a tiny link behind a collapsed menu that very few people bother clicking. For example, my blog has gone from being prominently taking first spot on Google for some queries. Now with AI overviews, there is a sharp drop in traffic. However, it still showed higher impressions then ever. This means I'm appearing in search, even in AI overview, it's just that very few people click. As of last week, impressions have also dropped. Maybe people not clicking on my links anymore is the result?
  - ako 1y ago
    Maybe it's about adding knowledge to LLMs, and not how many people read your website? I would be very happy if i had a simple way to get my insights, knowledge and best practices into the next version of an LLM so I have a way to improve it.
- skeeter2020 1y ago
  and like Google - but much, much worse - they bring back enough content to keep users in the chat interface; they never visit your site.
naet 1y ago
I do dev work for a marketing dept of a large company and there is a lot of talk about optimizing for LLMs/AI. Chatgpt can drive sales in the same way a blog post indexed by Google can. If a customer asks the AI what product can solve their problem and it replies with our product that is a huge win. If your business is SEO spam with online ads, chatgpt might eat it. But if your business is selling some product, chatgpt might help you sell it.
- krainboltgreene 1y ago
  Neat up until the "customer ask" is "What, in X space, is the worst product you can purchase?" Something you have no ability to manipulate.
  - charcircuit 1y ago
    >Something you have no ability to manipulate. What makes you think this?
    - krainboltgreene 1y ago
      Because I built an LLM, I know how they work.
      - NaomiLehman 1y ago
        just add an arbiter layer on top for the possibility of advertising and modifying the output. not rocket science
  - yawaramin 1y ago
    Why would a customer ask that? If I'm looking for something, why would I waste time with the worst version of it? I'd just go straight for the best.
  - arlcode 1y ago
    That is at most temporary. I expect within the next 5 year "partner products" and "LLM-optpmized content" will take the place of SEO. The economic dynamics did not change and the methods will adapt. Why wouldn't Google sell advertisers a prominent spot in the AI summary. That's their whole deal. Why wouldn't OpenAI do the same with (free) users.?
userbinator 1y ago
And neither of those two ultimately help the humans who are actually looking for something. You have a finite amount of time to spend on optimising for humans, or for search engines (and now LLMs), and unfortunately many chose the latter and it's just lead to plenty of spam in the search results. Yes, SEO can bring traffic to your site, but if your visitors see nothing of value, they'll quickly leave.
CGamesPlay 1y ago
But software documentation is a prime example of when the incentives don't have any problems. I want my docs to be more accessible to LLMs, so more people use my software, so my software gets more mindshare, so I get more paying customers on my enterprise support plan.
- skeptrune 1y ago
  Oh hey, I work at Mintlify! We shipped this as a default feature for all of our customers.
foxyv 1y ago
If you are selling advertising, then I agree. However, if you are selling a product to consumers then no. Ask an LLM "What is the best refrigerator on the market." You will get various answers like: > The best refrigerator on the market varies based on individual needs, but top brands like LG and Samsung are highly recommended for their innovative features, reliability, and energy efficiency. For specific models, consider LG's Smart Standard-Depth MAX™ French Door Refrigerator or Samsung's smart refrigerators with internal cameras. Optimizing your site for LLM means that you can direct their gestalt thinking towards your brand.
shpx 1y ago
You get to live in a world where other people are slightly more productive.

skeptrune 1y ago

This isn't true. ChatGPT and Gemini link to sites in a similar way to how search engines have always done it. You can see the traffic show up in ahrefs or semrush.

nozzlegear 1y ago
I had a call with a new user for a SaaS product that I sell recently. During the call he mentioned that he found it by typing what he was looking for into Gemini, and it recommended my app. I don't do anything special for llms, and the public-facing part of the website has been neglected for longer than I like to admit, so I was delighted. I had never considered that AI could send new users to me rather than pull them away. It felt like I'd hacked the system somehow, skipped through all the SEO best practices of yesteryear and had this benevolent bullshit machine bestow a new user on me at the cost of nothing.
- skeptrune 1y ago
  Exactly! It can actually be a positive thing, might as well make it easy for LLMs to read.
- hahnbee 1y ago
  > benevolent bullshit machine bestow a new user on me at the cost of nothing that's awesome. i love this line.
gl-prod 1y ago
How many users do actually visit these links?
- bastawhiz 1y ago
  I usually do, as a data point.
- Larrikin 1y ago
  I've found it's extremely important to, because you will get some results that are already AI slop optimized to show in LLM research searches.
foxfired 1y ago
Yes, they show a tiny link behind a collapsed menu that very few people bother clicking. For example, my blog has gone from being prominently taking first spot on Google for some queries. Now with AI overviews, there is a sharp drop in traffic. However, it still showed higher impressions then ever. This means I'm appearing in search, even in AI overview, it's just that very few people click. As of last week, impressions have also dropped. Maybe people not clicking on my links anymore is the result?
- ako 1y ago
  Maybe it's about adding knowledge to LLMs, and not how many people read your website? I would be very happy if i had a simple way to get my insights, knowledge and best practices into the next version of an LLM so I have a way to improve it.
skeeter2020 1y ago
and like Google - but much, much worse - they bring back enough content to keep users in the chat interface; they never visit your site.

naet 1y ago

I do dev work for a marketing dept of a large company and there is a lot of talk about optimizing for LLMs/AI. Chatgpt can drive sales in the same way a blog post indexed by Google can. If a customer asks the AI what product can solve their problem and it replies with our product that is a huge win. If your business is SEO spam with online ads, chatgpt might eat it. But if your business is selling some product, chatgpt might help you sell it.

krainboltgreene 1y ago
Neat up until the "customer ask" is "What, in X space, is the worst product you can purchase?" Something you have no ability to manipulate.
- charcircuit 1y ago
  >Something you have no ability to manipulate. What makes you think this?
  - krainboltgreene 1y ago
    Because I built an LLM, I know how they work.
    - NaomiLehman 1y ago
      just add an arbiter layer on top for the possibility of advertising and modifying the output. not rocket science
- yawaramin 1y ago
  Why would a customer ask that? If I'm looking for something, why would I waste time with the worst version of it? I'd just go straight for the best.
- arlcode 1y ago
  That is at most temporary. I expect within the next 5 year "partner products" and "LLM-optpmized content" will take the place of SEO. The economic dynamics did not change and the methods will adapt. Why wouldn't Google sell advertisers a prominent spot in the AI summary. That's their whole deal. Why wouldn't OpenAI do the same with (free) users.?

userbinator 1y ago

And neither of those two ultimately help the humans who are actually looking for something. You have a finite amount of time to spend on optimising for humans, or for search engines (and now LLMs), and unfortunately many chose the latter and it's just lead to plenty of spam in the search results. Yes, SEO can bring traffic to your site, but if your visitors see nothing of value, they'll quickly leave.

CGamesPlay 1y ago

But software documentation is a prime example of when the incentives don't have any problems. I want my docs to be more accessible to LLMs, so more people use my software, so my software gets more mindshare, so I get more paying customers on my enterprise support plan.

skeptrune 1y ago
Oh hey, I work at Mintlify! We shipped this as a default feature for all of our customers.

foxyv 1y ago

If you are selling advertising, then I agree. However, if you are selling a product to consumers then no. Ask an LLM "What is the best refrigerator on the market." You will get various answers like: > The best refrigerator on the market varies based on individual needs, but top brands like LG and Samsung are highly recommended for their innovative features, reliability, and energy efficiency. For specific models, consider LG's Smart Standard-Depth MAX™ French Door Refrigerator or Samsung's smart refrigerators with internal cameras. Optimizing your site for LLM means that you can direct their gestalt thinking towards your brand.

shpx 1y ago

You get to live in a world where other people are slightly more productive.