2 ms·

In places where there are already public roads, private roads cannot generally compete because the price at point of use is $0 and the maintenance cost are sunk

In places where there are already public roads, private roads cannot generally compete because the price at point of use is $0 and the maintenance cost are sunk. Imagine for a moment I had a private school that was equal in all ways to a nearby public school including cost. People would say "why I already paid taxes for the public school, why would I go there and then have to pay yet again." No one would go to the private school. Whereas if they were not made to pay the taxes, they'd be about as equally likely to go to the private school as the public one, and the overall costs would be same. It is very difficult to establish a robust private road system in a place with public roads. The public views the public road as an established asset rather than the reality (they are an ongoing subscription of maintenance costs). The costs are invisible to the public, even if they might be worse, they just see the road as "free" when they drive on it. This means the public can end up spending even more money with worse results than use of private roads, but be stuck in a local minima they will never escape from.

estearum 1y ago
Why are you ignoring what I just said? You can go buy land anywhere you want (i.e. where there are no public roads) and your private roads can compete just fine. Anyone has always been free to do this since this nation was created. What's the problem?
- mothballed 1y ago
  Alright, lets imagine what you say. I build a private interstate next to a public interstate. Lets say it costs me $0.20 / mi per honda civic that travels on it, and the public road costs $0.30 / mi per honda civic that travels on it in amortized costs. At the point of use, the user sees my toll of say, $.25 / mi with some profit, and at point of use the user sees $0.00 for the public highway. Who on earth would bother to take my toll road, even though it is more efficient and cheaper? They've already paid the tax, and not only that, it is largely invisible to them. The government will literally imprison them or take their shit if they don't pay it, it is a sunk cost, the government has violently usurped my competition via payment under threat of violence. You can't compete with 'free' at the point of use enforced by a violent actor against a sunk cost. Yes if you buy a plot of land that appears to not even be accessible by vehicle without some kind of unknown corner-crossing easement (one linked), then you will win out vs the non-existent competition there, but of course if the government shows up and taxes you to build a road even then you would lose.
  - estearum 1y ago
    Again, you keep suggesting that you're going to benefit from existing infrastructure someone else paid for. It's not the public's job to provide customers for your toll road. You can build your toll road and have unencumbered competition elsewhere.
    - mothballed 1y ago
      >Again, you keep suggesting that you're going to benefit from existing infrastructure someone else paid for. No I'm talking about using infrastructure a private entity has paid for as competition. Would you call it "unencumbered" competition if I started stealing a few bucks from everybody that goes to the gas station, then paid people to take my road with the ill-gotten gains instead of the public interstate, then declared that the government is free to compete unencumbered? Of course you wouldn't, I can't just take money from everyone at the gas pump, but the government can so that their public "toll" is already paid and I can't compete even if my road is cheaper. The end result is public roads have a mobster-type clamp on the encumbered market. You can't compete with them because they have a monopoly on violence and use it to prepay the toll to game the price at the point of use.
      - estearum 1y ago
        Huh? What hypothetical car has the option to use your road or use the public road, but wasn't provided to you as a potential customer by the public road? Agreed, when a public road provides your customer, it's hard to win that competition. But again: you can just build your roads away from public roads, find your own customers, and then you don't need to compete with them.
        mothballed 1y ago
        >but wasn't provided to you as a potential customer by the public road? Mine, where I live the roads for miles and miles are all private with public easements and are privately funded. Of course by your definition that would make the public road illegitimate, because it has unfairly poached a private road user (not sure I agree with that).

estearum 1y ago

Why are you ignoring what I just said? You can go buy land anywhere you want (i.e. where there are no public roads) and your private roads can compete just fine. Anyone has always been free to do this since this nation was created. What's the problem?

mothballed 1y ago
Alright, lets imagine what you say. I build a private interstate next to a public interstate. Lets say it costs me $0.20 / mi per honda civic that travels on it, and the public road costs $0.30 / mi per honda civic that travels on it in amortized costs. At the point of use, the user sees my toll of say, $.25 / mi with some profit, and at point of use the user sees $0.00 for the public highway. Who on earth would bother to take my toll road, even though it is more efficient and cheaper? They've already paid the tax, and not only that, it is largely invisible to them. The government will literally imprison them or take their shit if they don't pay it, it is a sunk cost, the government has violently usurped my competition via payment under threat of violence. You can't compete with 'free' at the point of use enforced by a violent actor against a sunk cost. Yes if you buy a plot of land that appears to not even be accessible by vehicle without some kind of unknown corner-crossing easement (one linked), then you will win out vs the non-existent competition there, but of course if the government shows up and taxes you to build a road even then you would lose.
- estearum 1y ago
  Again, you keep suggesting that you're going to benefit from existing infrastructure someone else paid for. It's not the public's job to provide customers for your toll road. You can build your toll road and have unencumbered competition elsewhere.
  - mothballed 1y ago
    >Again, you keep suggesting that you're going to benefit from existing infrastructure someone else paid for. No I'm talking about using infrastructure a private entity has paid for as competition. Would you call it "unencumbered" competition if I started stealing a few bucks from everybody that goes to the gas station, then paid people to take my road with the ill-gotten gains instead of the public interstate, then declared that the government is free to compete unencumbered? Of course you wouldn't, I can't just take money from everyone at the gas pump, but the government can so that their public "toll" is already paid and I can't compete even if my road is cheaper. The end result is public roads have a mobster-type clamp on the encumbered market. You can't compete with them because they have a monopoly on violence and use it to prepay the toll to game the price at the point of use.
    - estearum 1y ago
      Huh? What hypothetical car has the option to use your road or use the public road, but wasn't provided to you as a potential customer by the public road? Agreed, when a public road provides your customer, it's hard to win that competition. But again: you can just build your roads away from public roads, find your own customers, and then you don't need to compete with them.
      - mothballed 1y ago
        >but wasn't provided to you as a potential customer by the public road? Mine, where I live the roads for miles and miles are all private with public easements and are privately funded. Of course by your definition that would make the public road illegitimate, because it has unfairly poached a private road user (not sure I agree with that).