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This is a surprising result. I wonder how they managed to convince people this was necessary. There’s a real split in this debate, between people living in cou

This is a surprising result. I wonder how they managed to convince people this was necessary. There’s a real split in this debate, between people living in countries that have this and people living elsewhere. People who have used it are generally supportive, if they think about it at all. People who’ve never lived in a country with this are generally skeptical about the benefits and pessimistic about the downsides (privacy, mainly). HN being HN, is almost entirely in the latter camp regardless of where they live. I would have expected the Swiss to be skeptical, and to some extent they were. This is the narrowest possible margin of victory. Still, it would be interesting to know what argument the Yes campaign used that resonated with > 50% of voters.

bootsmann 1y ago
There wasn't really a yes campaign which, imo, is why it was this close. The government put it out there, made their handful of media appearances and that was mostly it. The vibes were that it was going to pass easily so everyone almost sleepwalked themselves into a disaster.
the_mitsuhiko 1y ago
I live in a country (Austria) with at this point more than 20 years of a sort of digital ID. I’m really not quite sure how something as simple as authenticating as a citizen to access governmental services has become so controversial.
- majormajor 1y ago
  Some fairly unusual (compared to most of Christianity practiced globally) Biblical interpretations widely popularized in the past 100 years have a lot to do with it in the US. HN is typically more coming from a libertarian-anti-tracking bent but the larger popular US opposition to standardized federal IDs is rooted in "mark of the beast" stuff.
  - QQ00 1y ago
    curious what mark of the beast has to do with a federal ID? I always thought the opposition majority because it's not something in the constitution to be a centralized by the federal government and it was left for the state to handle.
    - ls612 1y ago
      I think RFID chips were what was actually being opposed by these religious fundamentalists but idk why they saw that as a satanic mark.
    - majormajor 1y ago
      Just google "is real ID the mark of the beast" or "is social security number the mark of the beast" like I did above. The premillenial dispensationalism theory is widespread in southern evangelical churches in the US, with big sales of associated media. The association is "verse says a mark will be required and a number of the beast is mentioned" -> "these are numbers assigned by the government required for commerce" -> "this is the mark." The language of the apocalopytic verses is flowery enough that people pick and choose which parts they take literally, so for a while it wasn't seen as necessarily an injection (or you could also believe that eventually you'd have to get a SSN tattoo, say).
  - hn-ifs 1y ago
    Can you elaborate? What does IDs have to do with religion/Christianity?
    - pheggs 1y ago
      Unfortunately they also passed a law for age checks in order "to protect children", which is supposed to block porn unless you show your E-ID. While a referendum was initialized it sadly didn't gain enough media attention to actually make it to a vote.
    - majormajor 1y ago
      https://www.dailyjournal.com/articles/381327-cash-for-christians-avoiding-the-mark-of-the-beast https://www.dailyjournal.com/articles/381327-cash-for-christ... https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2014/07/16/social-security-number-may-be-mark-of-the-beast-but-that-will-not-save-your-job/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2014/07/16/social-... https://www.faithfamilyfit.org/post/is-the-real-id-act-a-gateway-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-a-christian-take-on-digital-control https://www.faithfamilyfit.org/post/is-the-real-id-act-a-gat... Easy to google for more, from varying levels of fringy-looking websites, but the "numerical ID == mark of the beast" fear is common evangelical American doctrine of the same source that saw these books sell 65 million copies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind - they went digital with an injected chip, which is one of the things the Covid-19 vaccine sparked echoes of
- yunohn 1y ago
  Same in the Netherlands with DigiID and Sweden with BankID.
- bootsmann 1y ago
  It's not just government services (such credentials already exist but its a hodgepodge of self-rolled services for each agency). This ID will generally be equal to the real ID so it will be used to verify citizenship to employers, banks and even the store you order alcohol from. You can even use it to prove that you're of age to the barman irl.
  - einarfd 1y ago
    In my opinion the Norwegian variant of this, is an important part on making it easier to switch things like banking or insurance provider. Without BankID I think the competition between these type of providers would be even worse.
bossyTeacher 1y ago
This being HN, I expect most people on here are American and view social topics from an American perspective. Swiss have a level of trust in their governments that Americans could never even dream of. The pros and cons of this debate are not necessarily about whether the current government or a near future one will abuse it. But I feel that Americans on here (as well as folks living in countries with low government trust) are projecting their low trust views onto other countries and thus concluding that the current swiss government or a near future one cannot be trusted with this power.
- panick21_ 1y ago
  That isnt really the case. We voted on this before and it was rejected. It was a very long journy to pass this.
  - Leherenn 1y ago
    But the first time it was due to be handled privately and this time by the state. And that was one of the main arguments against it at the time. So I don't think the GP is that far from the truth.
    - Squeeeez 1y ago
      Note that when the Swiss government says "handled by the state" it means it will usually be handled by the lowest-bidding consulting company.
      - izacus 1y ago
        Which needs to follow a mandate of properly handling user data (Switzerland has a law that's very close to GDPR) and properly respecting privacy as written in the proposal. Not doing so is something the citizens can sue the government for - as opposed to US "private company can collect whatever, whenever and do whatever" (see credit ratings).
    - panick21_ 1y ago
themafia 1y ago
> People who have used it are generally supportive, if they think about it at all. What are you basing this assertion on? Have you considered China? Do you know if you can get accurate representations of citizen sentiment on this issue? > HN being HN, is almost entirely in the latter camp regardless of where they live. Ostensibly we're hackers. We understand how good technologies can be put to inhumane uses. We see it quite often. Many of us hack on software in an effort to eliminate these often unintended consequences. > Still, it would be interesting to know what argument the Yes campaign used that resonated with > 50% of voters. You should know this isn't the first time the vote was held. In previous referendums the proposal was defeated and this time it only narrowly passed. You might be better served in doing a comparison between the two.
ale42 1y ago
Voter here. Although I'm not totally convinced of the absolute necessity of an e-ID, and that there are a few points that I find inherently bad (mainly the necessity of using a smartphone, and possibly excluding rooted ones or those with customized installations like LineageOS), I still approved this. The reason is simple: the tendency to be able to identify people on online services can only increase and will so. It can be proper identity verification (let's say to activate a SIM card or to request some service like to open a bank account), age verificaiton (prove that you are >18), or perhaps other things too. The system they propose seem to be able to provide the minimum amount of data possible (e.g. you can verify your age without providing your birth date). My guess is that if we don't have a public e-ID system, we'll have one or more private ones, probably managed by one or more of the usual big corporations. Personally I trust the Swiss government more than them. And finally if it gets totally wrong, 100k people are enough to go to the vote again and abolish it through a popular initiative.
- Twelveday 1y ago
  Apparently the team is actively working on a solution to allow for rooted phones (just shows you a warning) and alternative stores. I was really torn on what to vote but went for a yes in the end - only time will tell if and how this will be abused. https://github.com/swiyu-admin-ch/eidch-android-wallet/issues/1#issuecomment-3153829449 https://github.com/swiyu-admin-ch/eidch-android-wallet/issue...
lloda 1y ago
The main reason I voted against was because it is tied to smartphones with only the vaguest promise that it won't stay so. Ironically one of the arguments in favor was independence from megacorporations (or foreign countries for that matter). But you couldn't find this point in the main opposition website. The opposition was very weak with weak arguments and the parliament was massively in favor.

bootsmann 1y ago

There wasn't really a yes campaign which, imo, is why it was this close. The government put it out there, made their handful of media appearances and that was mostly it. The vibes were that it was going to pass easily so everyone almost sleepwalked themselves into a disaster.

the_mitsuhiko 1y ago

I live in a country (Austria) with at this point more than 20 years of a sort of digital ID. I’m really not quite sure how something as simple as authenticating as a citizen to access governmental services has become so controversial.

majormajor 1y ago
Some fairly unusual (compared to most of Christianity practiced globally) Biblical interpretations widely popularized in the past 100 years have a lot to do with it in the US. HN is typically more coming from a libertarian-anti-tracking bent but the larger popular US opposition to standardized federal IDs is rooted in "mark of the beast" stuff.
- QQ00 1y ago
  curious what mark of the beast has to do with a federal ID? I always thought the opposition majority because it's not something in the constitution to be a centralized by the federal government and it was left for the state to handle.
  - ls612 1y ago
    I think RFID chips were what was actually being opposed by these religious fundamentalists but idk why they saw that as a satanic mark.
  - majormajor 1y ago
    Just google "is real ID the mark of the beast" or "is social security number the mark of the beast" like I did above. The premillenial dispensationalism theory is widespread in southern evangelical churches in the US, with big sales of associated media. The association is "verse says a mark will be required and a number of the beast is mentioned" -> "these are numbers assigned by the government required for commerce" -> "this is the mark." The language of the apocalopytic verses is flowery enough that people pick and choose which parts they take literally, so for a while it wasn't seen as necessarily an injection (or you could also believe that eventually you'd have to get a SSN tattoo, say).
- hn-ifs 1y ago
  Can you elaborate? What does IDs have to do with religion/Christianity?
  - pheggs 1y ago
    Unfortunately they also passed a law for age checks in order "to protect children", which is supposed to block porn unless you show your E-ID. While a referendum was initialized it sadly didn't gain enough media attention to actually make it to a vote.
  - majormajor 1y ago
    https://www.dailyjournal.com/articles/381327-cash-for-christians-avoiding-the-mark-of-the-beast https://www.dailyjournal.com/articles/381327-cash-for-christ... https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2014/07/16/social-security-number-may-be-mark-of-the-beast-but-that-will-not-save-your-job/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2014/07/16/social-... https://www.faithfamilyfit.org/post/is-the-real-id-act-a-gateway-to-the-mark-of-the-beast-a-christian-take-on-digital-control https://www.faithfamilyfit.org/post/is-the-real-id-act-a-gat... Easy to google for more, from varying levels of fringy-looking websites, but the "numerical ID == mark of the beast" fear is common evangelical American doctrine of the same source that saw these books sell 65 million copies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind - they went digital with an injected chip, which is one of the things the Covid-19 vaccine sparked echoes of
yunohn 1y ago
Same in the Netherlands with DigiID and Sweden with BankID.
bootsmann 1y ago
It's not just government services (such credentials already exist but its a hodgepodge of self-rolled services for each agency). This ID will generally be equal to the real ID so it will be used to verify citizenship to employers, banks and even the store you order alcohol from. You can even use it to prove that you're of age to the barman irl.
- einarfd 1y ago
  In my opinion the Norwegian variant of this, is an important part on making it easier to switch things like banking or insurance provider. Without BankID I think the competition between these type of providers would be even worse.

bossyTeacher 1y ago

This being HN, I expect most people on here are American and view social topics from an American perspective. Swiss have a level of trust in their governments that Americans could never even dream of. The pros and cons of this debate are not necessarily about whether the current government or a near future one will abuse it. But I feel that Americans on here (as well as folks living in countries with low government trust) are projecting their low trust views onto other countries and thus concluding that the current swiss government or a near future one cannot be trusted with this power.

panick21_ 1y ago
That isnt really the case. We voted on this before and it was rejected. It was a very long journy to pass this.
- Leherenn 1y ago
  But the first time it was due to be handled privately and this time by the state. And that was one of the main arguments against it at the time. So I don't think the GP is that far from the truth.
  - Squeeeez 1y ago
    Note that when the Swiss government says "handled by the state" it means it will usually be handled by the lowest-bidding consulting company.
    - izacus 1y ago
      Which needs to follow a mandate of properly handling user data (Switzerland has a law that's very close to GDPR) and properly respecting privacy as written in the proposal. Not doing so is something the citizens can sue the government for - as opposed to US "private company can collect whatever, whenever and do whatever" (see credit ratings).
  - panick21_ 1y ago

themafia 1y ago

> People who have used it are generally supportive, if they think about it at all. What are you basing this assertion on? Have you considered China? Do you know if you can get accurate representations of citizen sentiment on this issue? > HN being HN, is almost entirely in the latter camp regardless of where they live. Ostensibly we're hackers. We understand how good technologies can be put to inhumane uses. We see it quite often. Many of us hack on software in an effort to eliminate these often unintended consequences. > Still, it would be interesting to know what argument the Yes campaign used that resonated with > 50% of voters. You should know this isn't the first time the vote was held. In previous referendums the proposal was defeated and this time it only narrowly passed. You might be better served in doing a comparison between the two.

ale42 1y ago

Voter here. Although I'm not totally convinced of the absolute necessity of an e-ID, and that there are a few points that I find inherently bad (mainly the necessity of using a smartphone, and possibly excluding rooted ones or those with customized installations like LineageOS), I still approved this. The reason is simple: the tendency to be able to identify people on online services can only increase and will so. It can be proper identity verification (let's say to activate a SIM card or to request some service like to open a bank account), age verificaiton (prove that you are >18), or perhaps other things too. The system they propose seem to be able to provide the minimum amount of data possible (e.g. you can verify your age without providing your birth date). My guess is that if we don't have a public e-ID system, we'll have one or more private ones, probably managed by one or more of the usual big corporations. Personally I trust the Swiss government more than them. And finally if it gets totally wrong, 100k people are enough to go to the vote again and abolish it through a popular initiative.

Twelveday 1y ago
Apparently the team is actively working on a solution to allow for rooted phones (just shows you a warning) and alternative stores. I was really torn on what to vote but went for a yes in the end - only time will tell if and how this will be abused. https://github.com/swiyu-admin-ch/eidch-android-wallet/issues/1#issuecomment-3153829449 https://github.com/swiyu-admin-ch/eidch-android-wallet/issue...

lloda 1y ago

The main reason I voted against was because it is tied to smartphones with only the vaguest promise that it won't stay so. Ironically one of the arguments in favor was independence from megacorporations (or foreign countries for that matter). But you couldn't find this point in the main opposition website. The opposition was very weak with weak arguments and the parliament was massively in favor.