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> The sort rules are simple In considering the simplicity of the rule, I think you're using a developers perspective here where we automatically classify numbe

by derriz 1y ago

> The sort rules are simple In considering the simplicity of the rule, I think you're using a developers perspective here where we automatically classify numbers and have a clear mental model of the separation between value and representation. But I'm not sure how simple it would be to explain to a non-technical user why size_5, size_10 and size_15 are in order but size_0.25, size_0.5 and size_0.75 are out-of-order. > with no major outcry I'm regularly amazed at how little non-developer/technical users complain about strange and confusing behavior.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
mcny 1y ago
> I'm regularly amazed at how little non-developer/technical users complain about strange and confusing behavior. It reminds me of the recent article here titled something like "Altoids by the mouthful". We just get used to eating cat poop and we never realize it is not a good idea to eat cat poop, not that we should make it more palatable by chasing the cat poop by chewing Altoids by the mouthful. Edit: for today's lucky ten thousand https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45343449 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45343449
quacked 1y ago
> I'm regularly amazed at how little non-developer/technical users complain about strange and confusing behavior. I am a highly technical user that works with a lot of people with traditional engineering degrees but little to no software experience (except as frequent users). The answer here is that they've learned that all computer software is arcane and mysterious, and so they just accept that there will be strange patterns they have to pick up on, and that's their role as a user. They don't complain about strange and confusing behavior because they treat all the behavior as strange and confusing.
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  > traditional engineering degrees What does that mean? What disciplines? I cannot believe that all junior graduates in engineering disciplines in the 2020s are not doing some programming, even if just writing macros in a CAD program.
  - quacked 1y ago
    Most of the people I work with are 35+, but even the juniors in MechE, Aero, etc. tend to have some scripting experience that doesn't necessarily translate to having a robust intuition about DBs, the relationship between frontend and backend design, etc.
tpmoney 1y ago
> I'm regularly amazed at how little non-developer/technical users complain about strange and confusing behavior. Because EVERYTHING a computer does to non-developer/technical users is "strange and confusing". With few exceptions, most people have no idea why their computer does something the way it does, or how they could make it do something different even if they wanted it to. And most of the time, when they complain about it to someone knowledgeable the answer will be some variant on "that's just sort of the way it is". Imagine a world where the names are sorting the way that the OP is looking for, you're still having to explain to someone why the first group sorts "out of order" and the second group sorts "in order". And if they complained, they would almost certainly get an answer that is some variant on "that's just sort of the way it is".
- grues-dinner 1y ago
  And if you explain in detail about how it works, a lot of people (not all, but quite of few of the more obstreperous types who raise these as CRITICAL BUGS with solutions apparently SO SIMPLE MY DOG COULD IMPLEMENT IT) will then say "I don't know why you have to make it all so complicated, things were simpler and better in v(n-12) in 1997". If you add an option you're making it more complicated, harder to document and less discoverable, if you don't it's "useless", if you use a heuristic it's "too magical". Eventually someone has to be unhappy.
Wowfunhappy 1y ago
> But I'm not sure how simple it would be to explain to a non-technical user why size_5, size_10 and size_15 are in order but size_0.25, size_0.5 and size_0.75 are out-of-order. You don't have to explain it if the situation never comes up. I'd bet 99.9% of computer users don't have any files which would trigger this edge case in a situation they would actually notice. Decimals just aren't that commonly used in this context, and even if you do have decimals the sorting will still work a lot of the time. For the remaining 0.5%, chalk it up to a bug. I literally had to test this on my Mac just now because I never realized it was broken.

by derriz 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

mcny 1y ago

> I'm regularly amazed at how little non-developer/technical users complain about strange and confusing behavior. It reminds me of the recent article here titled something like "Altoids by the mouthful". We just get used to eating cat poop and we never realize it is not a good idea to eat cat poop, not that we should make it more palatable by chasing the cat poop by chewing Altoids by the mouthful. Edit: for today's lucky ten thousand https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45343449 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45343449

quacked 1y ago

> I'm regularly amazed at how little non-developer/technical users complain about strange and confusing behavior. I am a highly technical user that works with a lot of people with traditional engineering degrees but little to no software experience (except as frequent users). The answer here is that they've learned that all computer software is arcane and mysterious, and so they just accept that there will be strange patterns they have to pick up on, and that's their role as a user. They don't complain about strange and confusing behavior because they treat all the behavior as strange and confusing.

throwaway2037 1y ago
> traditional engineering degrees What does that mean? What disciplines? I cannot believe that all junior graduates in engineering disciplines in the 2020s are not doing some programming, even if just writing macros in a CAD program.
- quacked 1y ago
  Most of the people I work with are 35+, but even the juniors in MechE, Aero, etc. tend to have some scripting experience that doesn't necessarily translate to having a robust intuition about DBs, the relationship between frontend and backend design, etc.

tpmoney 1y ago

> I'm regularly amazed at how little non-developer/technical users complain about strange and confusing behavior. Because EVERYTHING a computer does to non-developer/technical users is "strange and confusing". With few exceptions, most people have no idea why their computer does something the way it does, or how they could make it do something different even if they wanted it to. And most of the time, when they complain about it to someone knowledgeable the answer will be some variant on "that's just sort of the way it is". Imagine a world where the names are sorting the way that the OP is looking for, you're still having to explain to someone why the first group sorts "out of order" and the second group sorts "in order". And if they complained, they would almost certainly get an answer that is some variant on "that's just sort of the way it is".

grues-dinner 1y ago
And if you explain in detail about how it works, a lot of people (not all, but quite of few of the more obstreperous types who raise these as CRITICAL BUGS with solutions apparently SO SIMPLE MY DOG COULD IMPLEMENT IT) will then say "I don't know why you have to make it all so complicated, things were simpler and better in v(n-12) in 1997". If you add an option you're making it more complicated, harder to document and less discoverable, if you don't it's "useless", if you use a heuristic it's "too magical". Eventually someone has to be unhappy.

Wowfunhappy 1y ago

> But I'm not sure how simple it would be to explain to a non-technical user why size_5, size_10 and size_15 are in order but size_0.25, size_0.5 and size_0.75 are out-of-order. You don't have to explain it if the situation never comes up. I'd bet 99.9% of computer users don't have any files which would trigger this edge case in a situation they would actually notice. Decimals just aren't that commonly used in this context, and even if you do have decimals the sorting will still work a lot of the time. For the remaining 0.5%, chalk it up to a bug. I literally had to test this on my Mac just now because I never realized it was broken.