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This harkens back to the waterfall vs agile debates. Ideally there would be a plan of all of the architecture with all the pitfalls found out before any code is

by yoz-y 1y ago

This harkens back to the waterfall vs agile debates. Ideally there would be a plan of all of the architecture with all the pitfalls found out before any code is laid out. In practice this can’t happen because 30 minutes into coding you will find something that nobody thought about.

swiftcoder 1y ago
In the micro, sure. In the macro, if you are finding architecture problems after 30 minutes, then I’m afraid you aren’t really doing architecture planning up front.
- b_e_n_t_o_n 1y ago
  Depends on what you're building. If it's another crud app sure, but if its something remotely novel you just can't understand the landscape without walking through it at least once.
  - swiftcoder 1y ago
    > if its something remotely novel you just can't understand the landscape without walking through it at least once Sure you can. Mapping out the unknowns (and then having a plan to make each one knowable) is the single most important function of whoever you have designing your architecture. Up-front architecture isn't about some all-knowing deity proclaiming the perfect architecture from on high. It's an exercise in risk management, just like any other engineering task.
    - pixl97 1y ago
      >Mapping out the unknowns and > isn't about some all-knowing deity Seems like a big conflict of your own thoughts. Or as they say.... > there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.
      - swiftcoder 1y ago
        > But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And pretty much your job as an engineer is to mitigate the risk that poses. We don't build new architectures in a vacuum. We build on what has worked before in similar situations, and we adapt it to the problem at hand. That adaptation is an ongoing process - but it's not the same as saying "fuck it, let's vibe-code our architecture"
- spookie 1y ago
  Oftentimes, micro pitfalls are ill omens that some bigger issue is afoot.

by yoz-y 1y ago

swiftcoder 1y ago

In the micro, sure. In the macro, if you are finding architecture problems after 30 minutes, then I’m afraid you aren’t really doing architecture planning up front.

b_e_n_t_o_n 1y ago
Depends on what you're building. If it's another crud app sure, but if its something remotely novel you just can't understand the landscape without walking through it at least once.
- swiftcoder 1y ago
  > if its something remotely novel you just can't understand the landscape without walking through it at least once Sure you can. Mapping out the unknowns (and then having a plan to make each one knowable) is the single most important function of whoever you have designing your architecture. Up-front architecture isn't about some all-knowing deity proclaiming the perfect architecture from on high. It's an exercise in risk management, just like any other engineering task.
  - pixl97 1y ago
    >Mapping out the unknowns and > isn't about some all-knowing deity Seems like a big conflict of your own thoughts. Or as they say.... > there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.
    - swiftcoder 1y ago
      > But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And pretty much your job as an engineer is to mitigate the risk that poses. We don't build new architectures in a vacuum. We build on what has worked before in similar situations, and we adapt it to the problem at hand. That adaptation is an ongoing process - but it's not the same as saying "fuck it, let's vibe-code our architecture"
spookie 1y ago
Oftentimes, micro pitfalls are ill omens that some bigger issue is afoot.