7 ms·
A 3K-year-old copper smelting site could be key to understanding origins of iron
- Terr_ 1y ago> Sparkly hematite mineral was used as a flux by copper smelters. Its distinctive appearance may have helped to attract attention from ancient miners and prospectors. Every once in a while I pull up some Wikipedia article with idle curiosity of "If I were transported back in time, could I usefully help this get invented?" One result of this is a helpless appreciation for how complicated it can be to even identify what kind of substance is present without a staggeringly complex dependency-tree of identifying other chemicals, assaying tests, and the economic surplus to use reagents for analysis. Things could have been very different if iron ore was hard to distinguish.
- jandrewrogers 1y agoAbsolutely. As luck would have it, many epithermal mineral deposits have both sparkly hematite and copper ore in the same structure. This is a well-known motif in mineral exploration. They show up in the same geography but are separated into different layers. You can find many papers on the structure of these ore bodies. These are known as supergene deposits[0]. The most important features of these deposits is that they act like distillation columns for metals. Due to weathering and associated sulfuric acid, different metals separate out at different layers of the geology. This creates valuable concentrations for mining purposes. In modern mining, we kind of ignore these structures for iron mining purposes even though they are frequently > 50% iron by mass. If you find such a thing, you are more interested in the gold, silver, copper potential that is capped by an iron-rich gossan mineral. Iron is a cost sensitive commodity, you need to be able to mine it at very high concentrations and scales to be profitable. If that mineral has a pile of gold, silver, etc distilled underneath it, you’ll be more interested in that. Not all copper comes from these mineral formations but a lot is. Often, the hematite is mixed in with the copper mineral. I have a mineral exploration prospect right now which is essentially this. Amazing hematite crystals mixed with copper with strong assay signs of gold underneath. It is a predictable motif in mineral exploration. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergene_(geology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergene_(geology)
- throwup238 1y ago> Amazing hematite crystals mixed with copper with strong assay signs of gold underneath. Any chance we HN rockhounds could get some specimens? 8-)
- pjc50 1y agoThis is similar to the "rare earth tailings" phenomenon, isn't it. A mine is built to extract one metal, the most profitable at that time, and everything else unextracted ends up in mine tailings or refinery slag. But, in addition to truly worthless silicates, that "waste" includes a bunch of other metals at low purity which may eventually be economic to extract.
- IAmBroom 1y agoLeadville Colorado was the site of a very minor gold rush, that mostly produced large piles of lead tailings. Until someone noticed the lead tailings were not lead, but oxidized silver.
- lightedman 1y ago"Amazing hematite crystals mixed with copper with strong assay signs of gold underneath." Did you actually assay out anomalous gold concentrations or are you seeing the sulfides and oxides that are associated with gold? If the former, what sort of concentration are you getting?
- jandrewrogers 1y agoI have only assayed samples from the iron cap. You would not expect to find much in that part of the formation but it still came in at 1-2g/ton. There is a large area of visually striking bornite[0] that I have not yet been able to properly sample which is roughly the area you would expect the gold to concentrate. It is in the walls of a narrow, deep canyon at high elevation. The region was mined for gold/copper a century ago, so the existence is not surprising. The location makes access extremely challenging. It requires 3 hours of hiking, assuming you are fit, and borderline technical mountaineering once you get close to the site. The lower parts of the canyon are also under tens of meters of ice most of the year, which creates a separate set of safety issues. When these mountains were prospected in the 1920s, it would have been underneath a deep permanent snow field. I've visited some of the old gold mines in the area for calibration and this deposit appears substantially larger than those. The discovery was accidental. I was looking for a waterfall I had seen on satellite imagery in the backcountry and came across an enormous chunk of molybdenite[1] while climbing across granite scree. I made several trips to find the source of the molybdenite higher up the mountains, which I never did, but while searching for that I localized a bunch of other beautiful sulfide/oxide mineral specimens to the above canyon. It gives me a great excuse to explore parts of the mountains no one has been into before. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bornite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bornite [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenite
- scoopr 1y ago> Every once in a while I pull up some Wikipedia article with idle curiosity of "If I were transported back in time, could I usefully help this get invented?" This reminds me of the book “How to invent everything” by Ryan North, to kind of see the fast-path for many inventions :)
- GreenWatermelon 1y agoOne of the axioms I go by is that people were never stupid. Our ancestors 5000 and 10000 years ago were just as smart , intelligent and curios as we are today. With regards to metals, I have no doubt someone, be it a kid apprentice or a master smelter, experimented with melting different rocks to see what comes out. After all, if you already know that different rocks spew out different metals (copper, tin, etc..) it logically follows that there may be more. And then someone, be it the same person or a different person entirely, would've surely conducted experiments. After all, you already have Tin, Copper, and Bronze which combines both of them; all with different properties. Of course someone will want to know how this new shiny metal the smelter spewed out fares compared with other existing ones. Then some smith will want to try making something with that metal, new things are exciting. Many people here are familiar with the desire to try out a new Programming language or framework just for the sake of it, and a Bronze age smith is no different. Then someone will give that mee Iron sword/knife/axe a try , duel a friend, ruin their bronze weapon, and said friend will be like "holy shit I want an iron sword too it's way too good" and bam you got a meme.
- bombcar 1y ago"That old Copper++ is worthless, you need to try this Rust"
- card_zero 1y agoIdeas improve over time. So people in the past have worse ideas. This might include fear of change, and some mythological notion of an eternal golden way of life, which you must dutifully maintain by spending a thousand years not inventing pottery, and if anybody dares to try it, beating them up.
- pixl97 1y agoThe improvement of ideas over time is a rather complex process. It's multiple things working together. Typically you have to have an excess of calories which leads to free time in at least part of the population. While the 'fear of change' as gods fault is more of a post ad hoc rationalization of the horizon problem. That is any change in behaviors in the good times could lead to death in the hard times. Moving away from what works has risks.
- cultofmetatron 1y agopretty much why gold was probably the earliest worked metals. easy to identify, can be cold worked in a lot of cases. doesn't corrode.
- akssri 1y agoNote: there have been actual Iron-working sites discovered in India that are older than this, dated to 1600 BC [0]. A lot of this has been ignored (just like the Painted-Grey ware continuity from IVC), partly I imagine, because it calls into question a lot of the racial non-sense that passes for "Indology". [0]https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/isijinternational/54/5/54_1010/_html/-char/en https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/isijinternational/54/5/... [1]https://www.lkouniv.ac.in/site/writereaddata/siteContent/202004150925271082anil_kumar_origins_of_iron_working.pdf https://www.lkouniv.ac.in/site/writereaddata/siteContent/202... Edit: Apparently Tamil Nadu state in South India has claimed to have found a site from 3500 BC (not yet peer-reviewed AFAICT), https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62e36jm4jro https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62e36jm4jro
- contrarian1234 1y agonowhere in the article do they claim its the oldest iron... they just had a theory that copper processing lead to discoveries in iron processing. the evidence they found seems to support that. theyre not claiming this particular site is where the iron age started. and it has nothing to do with what some people in india did. Maybe they too discovered iron processing through a similar process. and i dont understand what racial things your bringing up..
- akssri 1y agoThis discovery is only of interest because the Iron-Age, as per standard-theory, started around 1200 BC. in the Caucuses/Anatolia or the near-East - which fits with another theory which claims that this allowed the "Aryans" to invade India with their technological superiority around this same time and replace the (dark-skinned) natives genetically. (Note: the above is obviously a caricature, but current versions of theory don't change the structure, only the emphasis on "race"). No one would care about a copper-smelt site from 500 BC.; nor would they care about this one if the Indian archaeological claims were accepted (but that one also destroys centuries of Western history-making about India, and all the social-theories that depend on it). This is all a digression from the main claims, so I'd prefer that people don't pull on this thread. For more information on how 'race' was ingested into Indology, I'd refer the interested reader to the excellent book by Adluri/Bagchi [0]. [0] https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article-abstract/120/3/1132/19796 https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article-abstract/120/3/1132/197...
- teleforce 1y agoFun fact, in the Quran prophet David (Dawwud) was granted a miracle that he can shape and mould iron easily, perhaps for building weaponary and armor. Another fun fact, there's a surah or chapter name iron (Al-Hadiid) in the Quran [2]. [1] Quran 34:10: https://quran.com/saba/10 https://quran.com/saba/10 Indeed, We granted David a (great) privilege from Us, (commanding:) “O mountains! Echo his hymns! And the birds as well.” We made iron mouldable for him. [2] Surah Al-Hadiid (Quran 57): https://quran.com/al-hadid https://quran.com/al-hadid
- rajamaka 1y agoNot sure I see the relevance
- peterfirefly 1y ago"We waz smiths", I think.
- jmpeax 1y agoThe tech tree of future games will have us smelt copper to unlock iron.
- bheadmaster 1y agoRuneScape has it right the first time.
- atwrk 1y agoAlready implemented in the Civilization series since the very first one, "Sid Meier's Civilization" from 1991 :)
- _joel 1y agoWatched a good video on "The Old Copper Culture", apparently they were using and working copper 9000 years ago, due to massive natural deposits of pure copper, something I never knew. (interesting geological reasons too) - worth a watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf7cKSFCeag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf7cKSFCeag
- INTPenis 1y agoIt's kinda romantic to think that innovation in those days likely came from the industrial sites. Maybe it was perfected later by an aristocrat, but it was more likely to be discovered by the ones who had ready access to smelters and were already using them all day every day.
- XorNot 1y agoAlso the economic situation it implies: industrial sites with specialists who were heavily engaged in one type of industry, such that they had the chance to notice and develop these sorts of innovations and discoveries.
- noduerme 1y agoGo into any restaurant kitchen. You can see in realtime how - half by pure superstition - humans can adopt totally unexplained, unscientific, but highly refined procedures and ingredients that enhance some particular effect in the thing they're working on. It just takes an archaeologist to find the science behind the cooking.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- OJFord 1y agoCan anyone recommend a book (I'm imagining sort of 'coffee table' style picture book, but not necessarily) on technological advancements through human history, ideally roughly chronologically but more organised around what needed to happen before the next was possible?
- arethuza 1y agoWell, there is "The Book - The Ultimate Guide to Rebuilding Civilization" - I don't have a copy but it certainly looks interesting: https://howtorebuildcivilization.com/en-gb https://howtorebuildcivilization.com/en-gb
- jay_kyburz 1y agoI have it. Its not scientific - just a collection of nice illustrations.
- massenpunkt 1y agoI started reading Josephine Quinn's book "How the world made the west" and I can recommend it. It goes quite into detail and is not of the sort "coffee-table"-style picture book. It explains the origins of technologies, trade between groups and challenges the common view how civilizations evolved.
- fennecfoxy 1y agoBased on the title it sounds like the intentions of the author were more politically motivated than anything else.
- peterfirefly 1y agoBased on reading the Guardian review (that predictably praises it and seems to be written by someone who doesn't know much history) and a much better review on a website run, weirdly enough, by Christians (written by someone who does know history), I would agree. The first half of the quality review praises the good parts of the book, the second half is where the meat is. It is probably a useful book if you don't know much about the classical world but it doesn't seem like one should take one's politics from it. Quality review: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/how-world-made-west/ https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/how-world-made-we... Low quality review: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/feb/28/how-the-world-made-the-west-by-josephine-quinn-review-rethinking-civilisation https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/feb/28/how-the-world-...
- metalman 1y agopoor speculation there are multiple plausible pathways for the dicovery of iron and other metals, the most prominent bieng through the extreamly ancient discovery of porcelain, and baked pottery indipendently at numerous sites world wide, and there are many types of ores(rocks,dirt) and fluxes, such as sand,or salt...the list is impossibly long. It is always good to keep in mind that basic technological developments predate our species,the key technology is of course, fire. I have been instructed in various methods of exploiting the properties of fire and natural materials to achive a wide range results including smelting ore to getting durable finnishes and experimentation in the hardening of copper. Many people are out there right now,working with found materials and producing metals and other peoducts in startlingly large quantities useing purely ancient manual methods. Current state of the art metalurgical operations are optimised in ways that go way beyond anything imaginable to the casual observer and exploit exotic phenomina that is counterintuitive and invisible to the naked eye.
- cpursley 1y agoThis is an interesting book on the general area: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1831667.The_Horse_the_Wheel_and_Language https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1831667.The_Horse_the_Wh...
- ReptileMan 1y agoCan anyone explain iron - unless it is steel (which was not a common knowledge trough history) it is worse than bronze in every aspect. So what lead to the iron age?
- noduerme 1y agoAnemia? Also, the earth made way more sense when it was flat.
- chrisco255 1y agoTin was hard to come by in those days and necessary for bronze. Late bronze age led to civilizational collapse and trade networks that distributed tin broke down. Iron was more abundant and could be more useful by itself than copper alone. May have been used for farm implements at first.
- arnsholt 1y agoTo expand on "tin was hard to come by", I believe two major sources of tin have been identified for bronze used in the Fertile Crescent: one in Cornwall, and one in Afghanistan. They had to travel really far abroad to make this stuff.
- bluGill 1y agoThe early processes for smelting iron resulted in a little steel which would be easy to collect and save for one big work. Over thousands of years you learn more and more of how to 'encourage this'
- aidenn0 1y ago1. Once you know how to make a hot enough furnace, iron is cheaper to make than bronze. Instead of finding copper and tin ore separately, you just need red rocks and a whole lot of trees. Quantity can trump quality. 2. There was steel in use already prior to 1000BC. High Carbon steel was being produced in both Europe and Asia by 400 BC. When people say "the iron age" it includes the usage of steel (which is mostly iron).
- vanderZwan 1y ago> These discoveries give weight to a long-discussed theory that iron was invented by copper smelters. Not to be flippant but who else could reasonably be expected to have invented it? Or is the implication that there were metalworkers at the time who weren't also copper smelters?
- jonathaneunice 1y agoRight? "Early metallurgists found to have been experimenting with the properties of metals and ores, laying the foundation for future advances that would prove economically and technologically important" is not the biggest possible reveal.
- vanderZwan 1y agoTo be clear, I'm not dismissing the research, which seems to be more about how they discovered it. I can understand if that was/is an open question, and these possible answers are pretty interesting. I was just wondering if there were competing theories here with reasons to doubt one is more likely than the other.
- hluska 1y agoMany years ago, my roommate was working on his PhD in geology while my history obsession was in full bloom and we talked about this a little. He made some interesting points about iron versus copper supply and how its relative abundance meant that some cultures would have had access to iron long before access to copper. The transition to iron was very slow and some places kept using bronze for centuries. There’s also no single point (known) for where the Iron Age started. In Nigeria, for example, it seems most likely that Nok people worked with iron first and had no significant Copper or Bronze Age. I think that the closest answer is that we don’t know for sure, but evidence seems to show that the path to iron followed different paths in different parts of the world. In some cases, the copper industry would have been heavily involved. In other places, an iron industry seemed to take shape before a copper industry, so the developments would have been independent.
- Bunny121212111 1y ago[dead]
- Bunny121212111 1y ago[dead]
- grgt 1y ago[dead]
- dfgtdfgd 1y ago[dead]
- grgt 1y ago[dead]
- grgt 1y ago[dead]
- dfgtdfgd 1y ago[dead]
- dfgtdfgd 1y ago[dead]
- dfgtdfgd 1y ago[dead]