3 ms·

From https://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2022/Jul/the-trouble-with-many-skeptics/ https://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2022/Jul/the-trouble-with-many-... > Back when I was at

From https://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2022/Jul/the-trouble-with-many-skeptics/ https://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2022/Jul/the-trouble-with-many-... > Back when I was at university, a friend mentioned to me that he wanted to read The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan. I had been a fan of Sagan since my teenage years, but had put off reading that book. Asking him if he’d read any of Sagan’s works, he said “No, but this book is often present in skeptic reading lists.” > Many years later, I finally read the book. I’m surprised with it being recommended by skeptics, as it has a lengthy criticism of skeptics. ... Quotes taken straight from the book: "And yet, the chief deficiency I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarization: Us vs. Them—the sense that we have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you’re sensible, you’ll listen to us; and if not, you’re beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across. It condemns the skeptics to permanent minority status; whereas, a compassionate approach that from the beginning acknowledges the human roots of pseudoscience and superstition might be much more widely accepted." ... "In the way that skepticism is sometimes applied to issues of public concern, there is a tendency to belittle, to condescend, to ignore the fact that, deluded or not, supporters of superstition and pseudoscience are human beings with real feelings, who, like the skeptics, are trying to figure out how the world works and what our role in it might be. Their motives are in many cases consonant with science. If their culture has not given them all the tools they need to pursue this great quest, let us temper our criticism with kindness. None of us comes fully equipped." It is indeed a great book. I would caution folks here that it is not particularly representative of Carl Sagan's books. If you loved/hated this book, it doesn't mean you'll love/hate his other books.

tracerbulletx 1y ago
I have no idea why you'd be surprised the skeptical community adores this book, its basically the clearest statement of the core fundamental principles, a plea to be open and empathetic is not hostile. It's just wisdom, and the majority of people who think of themselves as skeptics believe that its important. At the same time, sometimes you want to be around people who share and build community with the same ideology as you which should be perfectly ok.
- BeetleB 1y ago
  > I have no idea why you'd be surprised the skeptical community adores this book, The details are in the blog post. Basically, every skeptic community I've looked at has espoused the very behavior that Carl Sagan criticizes in the book. Very dismissive and arrogant folks. There's a reason he explicitly calls out the skeptic community. I did put this disclaimer though - I don't want this discussion to degrade into a no true Scotsman fallacy: > Or at least, visible and vocal skeptics I run across on the Internet. An argument could be made that these are the minority and not really representative of the majority of people who ascribe to skepticism.
  - crackrook 1y ago
    I read those Sagan quotes as a criticism of capital "S" Skeptics, those for whom skepticism is an identity perhaps more than it is a means to an end. I feel that Sagan's ultimate goal is to foster skepticism (or at least a refined version thereof), and that he is merely offering a warning about tribalism and ego.
    - BeetleB 1y ago
      > I feel that Sagan's ultimate goal is to foster skepticism (or at least a refined version thereof), I agree, yet I will note that he goes out of his way in the book to label skepticism and then criticize it. He did not wish to be thought of as a skeptic. The Descartes quote is in the book as well. Put another way: He was a skeptical person, but he did not ascribe to "skepticism". One thing I was pleasantly surprised to find in the book was an inclination to believe certain things to be true that many skeptics will refuse to entertain due to the lack of evidence. The only example I can recall was that back (and other) pain is often entirely psychosomatic. He didn't invoke John Sarno, but he showed clear openness to believing it. It wasn't a simple "I must have an open mind, so I must consider this as a possibility", but an actual assertion of his belief in it given recent findings. He gives a rationale on why it is a reasonable thing to believe. (Sidenote: I have a lot of pain, and Sarno's approach did nothing for me)
      - 1y ago
southernplaces7 1y ago
Sagan really nailed something that needs to be said around certain human beliefs with these specific arguments. I happen to follow the history of supposed UFO encounters as a personal hobby since years ago. I personally try to view it with a solid dose of careful qualification and skepticism that avoids preconceived biases and this means reading both the reports themselves, their analysis by those who are convinced they were somehow paranormal or inexplicable at least, and analysis by skeptics and people who style themselves as debunkers. To start with, from the two extremes representing on the one end UFOlogist types and on the other end, hard skeptics and the above-mentioned self-styles debunkers, there's no shortage of emotional reaction, irrational thinking, preconceived notions and confirmation bias. As for me, while I can't absolutely claim my own objectivity to be perfect and free of biases of one kind or another (by definition this is hard because if one were capable of such a thing, they wouldn't have a bias in the first place) I try to keep an open mind that's not dismissive of those who sincerely and with no evident reason for lying or hallucinating, claim to have seen strange things in the skies, but also try to recognize that people do misinterpret things, especially if they're not trained observers, or sometimes just lie. However, what I have noticed from many in the skeptic community in particular (and from the debunkers especially) is exactly the thing that Sagan notes. A harsh, extremely condescending attitude to any suggestion that any strange UFO sighting type incident be anything but perfectly explicable. More damningly, because they go into analyzing any such thing with a mind that's already decided on such things not being possible, by default they always feel they must debunk. It has basically become for them a default response. In some UFO sighting reports, where the details truly are baffling and even include very trained, sober observers (Air Force pilots, police, scientists etc), I've seen reviews by skeptics in which the contortions they make to justify the event as some mundane thing are almost more absurd than simply admitting that X group of people saw something that can't be explained (without having to say that this means it was a UFO by the way). This is not skepticism. It is instead a dogmatic logic, one based on emotion and irrationality disguised as hard boiled seriousness and being combined with a distinctly arrogant attitude around professing to be the one who is really the rational thinker, it comes across as even more absurd. From UFO investigators, the same happens in the other direction of course, but on the other hand, I've frequently seen reports in which they themselves have the flexibility to say that some particular case was indeed mundane. I have yet to see a serious skeptic, say, a Philip Klass type, who ever admits something to be inexplicable no matter how hard they need to stretch reasoning to avoid doing so. In some cases, some of them also simply delve into outright character assassination and claiming a witness to be an idiot or implying that there's something wrong with them. Again, Sagan's warning about compassion comes to mind. On this, he really nailed it while arguing for the importance of skepticism.

tracerbulletx 1y ago

I have no idea why you'd be surprised the skeptical community adores this book, its basically the clearest statement of the core fundamental principles, a plea to be open and empathetic is not hostile. It's just wisdom, and the majority of people who think of themselves as skeptics believe that its important. At the same time, sometimes you want to be around people who share and build community with the same ideology as you which should be perfectly ok.

BeetleB 1y ago
> I have no idea why you'd be surprised the skeptical community adores this book, The details are in the blog post. Basically, every skeptic community I've looked at has espoused the very behavior that Carl Sagan criticizes in the book. Very dismissive and arrogant folks. There's a reason he explicitly calls out the skeptic community. I did put this disclaimer though - I don't want this discussion to degrade into a no true Scotsman fallacy: > Or at least, visible and vocal skeptics I run across on the Internet. An argument could be made that these are the minority and not really representative of the majority of people who ascribe to skepticism.
- crackrook 1y ago
  I read those Sagan quotes as a criticism of capital "S" Skeptics, those for whom skepticism is an identity perhaps more than it is a means to an end. I feel that Sagan's ultimate goal is to foster skepticism (or at least a refined version thereof), and that he is merely offering a warning about tribalism and ego.
  - BeetleB 1y ago
    > I feel that Sagan's ultimate goal is to foster skepticism (or at least a refined version thereof), I agree, yet I will note that he goes out of his way in the book to label skepticism and then criticize it. He did not wish to be thought of as a skeptic. The Descartes quote is in the book as well. Put another way: He was a skeptical person, but he did not ascribe to "skepticism". One thing I was pleasantly surprised to find in the book was an inclination to believe certain things to be true that many skeptics will refuse to entertain due to the lack of evidence. The only example I can recall was that back (and other) pain is often entirely psychosomatic. He didn't invoke John Sarno, but he showed clear openness to believing it. It wasn't a simple "I must have an open mind, so I must consider this as a possibility", but an actual assertion of his belief in it given recent findings. He gives a rationale on why it is a reasonable thing to believe. (Sidenote: I have a lot of pain, and Sarno's approach did nothing for me)
    - 1y ago

southernplaces7 1y ago

Sagan really nailed something that needs to be said around certain human beliefs with these specific arguments. I happen to follow the history of supposed UFO encounters as a personal hobby since years ago. I personally try to view it with a solid dose of careful qualification and skepticism that avoids preconceived biases and this means reading both the reports themselves, their analysis by those who are convinced they were somehow paranormal or inexplicable at least, and analysis by skeptics and people who style themselves as debunkers. To start with, from the two extremes representing on the one end UFOlogist types and on the other end, hard skeptics and the above-mentioned self-styles debunkers, there's no shortage of emotional reaction, irrational thinking, preconceived notions and confirmation bias. As for me, while I can't absolutely claim my own objectivity to be perfect and free of biases of one kind or another (by definition this is hard because if one were capable of such a thing, they wouldn't have a bias in the first place) I try to keep an open mind that's not dismissive of those who sincerely and with no evident reason for lying or hallucinating, claim to have seen strange things in the skies, but also try to recognize that people do misinterpret things, especially if they're not trained observers, or sometimes just lie. However, what I have noticed from many in the skeptic community in particular (and from the debunkers especially) is exactly the thing that Sagan notes. A harsh, extremely condescending attitude to any suggestion that any strange UFO sighting type incident be anything but perfectly explicable. More damningly, because they go into analyzing any such thing with a mind that's already decided on such things not being possible, by default they always feel they must debunk. It has basically become for them a default response. In some UFO sighting reports, where the details truly are baffling and even include very trained, sober observers (Air Force pilots, police, scientists etc), I've seen reviews by skeptics in which the contortions they make to justify the event as some mundane thing are almost more absurd than simply admitting that X group of people saw something that can't be explained (without having to say that this means it was a UFO by the way). This is not skepticism. It is instead a dogmatic logic, one based on emotion and irrationality disguised as hard boiled seriousness and being combined with a distinctly arrogant attitude around professing to be the one who is really the rational thinker, it comes across as even more absurd. From UFO investigators, the same happens in the other direction of course, but on the other hand, I've frequently seen reports in which they themselves have the flexibility to say that some particular case was indeed mundane. I have yet to see a serious skeptic, say, a Philip Klass type, who ever admits something to be inexplicable no matter how hard they need to stretch reasoning to avoid doing so. In some cases, some of them also simply delve into outright character assassination and claiming a witness to be an idiot or implying that there's something wrong with them. Again, Sagan's warning about compassion comes to mind. On this, he really nailed it while arguing for the importance of skepticism.