5 ms·

I read this book many years ago and it made a big impression on me. His view is that normal, rational, intelligent people... can have fictional stories in thei

I read this book many years ago and it made a big impression on me. His view is that normal, rational, intelligent people... can have fictional stories in their heads about how things work. It takes energy and focus and research to fix these wrong stories, so often we live with them or don't recognize them. Many times I've been casually talking with someone, say something, then realize that doesn't make any sense. My wrong story made sense in my head, but not when I speak it out loud. By practicing the scientific method, we can gradually weed out the wrong stories in our heads. Now I'm going to re-read `The Demon-Haunted World`

card_zero 1y ago
... to replace them with better wrong stories! Repeatedly, as fast as possible.
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1y ago
  YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
  - shash 1y ago
    AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES Edit: came for the Sagan, found the Pratchett!
    - maleldil 1y ago
      To complete the quote with my favourite part: > You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?
  - card_zero 1y ago
    (Hogfather, p.422)
    - tim333 1y ago
      also https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1389211598215.pdf https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1389211598215.pdf p.246
- tgv 1y ago
  Your reply is not very HN, but you have a point. Many things cannot be settled with a scientific argument because we rarely disagree about the mass of an electron or the spectrum of Helium. In our daily discussions, almost nothing can be decided by science. Most of it boils down to different values, and different ways to think about the world (Weltanschauung). Finding common ground in those cases is hard work which requires inderstanding, openness and fairness of both sides. Or the acceptance of authority.
  - card_zero 1y ago
    Everything is subject to fallibility, even things that appear true by definition (if they attempt to say something about reality). Not only matters of worldview, moral values, and philosophy, but science too. It's not simply adding bricks to an edifice that is permanent and final. It's all wrong stories, of quite steadily improving similarity to reality. The goal at any point in time is to be wrong in the next way.
    - tgv 1y ago
      That's understood. Science is never the definitive answer, but I added the "authority" bit for a reason: if you don't know what the mass of an electron is or how you could go about finding out, you end up having to accept authority. But there are many things that are (currently) not open to a similar objective scientific approach. And those are our daily concerns, and the most contentious topics. The scientific method isn't going to help there.
aitchnyu 1y ago
I believe we all carry massive mythologies that are tough to displace. My Kagi-fu fails me. Its by an environmentalist who says any, say "avoid poisoning fish" advice stands against a massive "the line must go up" mythology. He compares it to the geocentrism of the Church; how the Sun, Moon and starts rotate around us and provides for humanity; and how heliocentrism also had to stand up against this massive mythology.
- popalchemist 1y ago
  Depth psychology would suggest that mythology is an emergent phenomenon of the psyche; there is no removing it. Better to understand that it is there and how it works. It is precisely due to this myth-making faculty that in the absence of a legit mythos (i.e. that of Christianity, which was the dominant cosmo-conception / worldview in the west for most of our history) the vacuum of power that is left by the absence of a God figure will be replaced by the nearest approximate/surrogate the psyche can find. This is how we elevate celebrities like Trump to the status of a God-king who can do no wrong.
  - blooalien 1y ago
    > "This is how we elevate celebrities like Trump to the status of a God-king who can do no wrong." I've long wondered about that even as I've watched the shift intensify over the decades, but in the context you describe, the MAGA death-cult starts to sorta come into focus a bit more. As they've abandoned "God" (as evidenced by so many of their actions going directly contrary to the teachings of Jesus in their own bible) they need a replacement god-figure to worship (one more in-line with the baser desires that they're choosing to embody). I still find it genuinely insane that their worship of one man leads them to fully embrace the downfall of civilized and thoughtful interaction so completely that it becomes a literal existential risk for humanity. > "Better to understand that it is there and how it works." This is the way to overcome / work around so many of our basic human "design flaws". Understanding and being aware of those things allows you to take actions to adjust in beneficial ways. This is one of the "special things" that truly separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom; Our ability to outright defy our "baser instincts" (at least some of us, anyhow).
mingus88 1y ago
Dragons of Eden was formative for me. I feel like the current generation of young people don’t have anyone like Carl Sagan to bring a sense of wonder to science and exploration. It makes me sad.
- blooalien 1y ago
  > "I feel like the current generation of young people don’t have anyone like Carl Sagan to bring a sense of wonder to science and exploration. It makes me sad." The closest I've seen in modern times is maybe [Neil DeGrasse Tyson][1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson
  - Yiin 1y ago
    hank green, Veritasium, Mark Rober, SmarterEveryDay
    - blooalien 1y ago
      Oh yeah, duh! I totally forgot about YouTube... Tons of great science communicators on YouTube! I should know better. I've learned truck-loads of great "sciencey" skills and knowledge from YouTubers.
- mayanraisins 1y ago
  Sean Carroll, author of the book The Big Picture and host of the Mindscape podcast, has been this for me. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_M._Carroll https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_M._Carroll

card_zero 1y ago

... to replace them with better wrong stories! Repeatedly, as fast as possible.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1y ago
YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
- shash 1y ago
  AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES Edit: came for the Sagan, found the Pratchett!
  - maleldil 1y ago
    To complete the quote with my favourite part: > You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?
- card_zero 1y ago
  (Hogfather, p.422)
  - tim333 1y ago
    also https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1389211598215.pdf https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1389211598215.pdf p.246
tgv 1y ago
Your reply is not very HN, but you have a point. Many things cannot be settled with a scientific argument because we rarely disagree about the mass of an electron or the spectrum of Helium. In our daily discussions, almost nothing can be decided by science. Most of it boils down to different values, and different ways to think about the world (Weltanschauung). Finding common ground in those cases is hard work which requires inderstanding, openness and fairness of both sides. Or the acceptance of authority.
- card_zero 1y ago
  Everything is subject to fallibility, even things that appear true by definition (if they attempt to say something about reality). Not only matters of worldview, moral values, and philosophy, but science too. It's not simply adding bricks to an edifice that is permanent and final. It's all wrong stories, of quite steadily improving similarity to reality. The goal at any point in time is to be wrong in the next way.
  - tgv 1y ago
    That's understood. Science is never the definitive answer, but I added the "authority" bit for a reason: if you don't know what the mass of an electron is or how you could go about finding out, you end up having to accept authority. But there are many things that are (currently) not open to a similar objective scientific approach. And those are our daily concerns, and the most contentious topics. The scientific method isn't going to help there.

aitchnyu 1y ago

I believe we all carry massive mythologies that are tough to displace. My Kagi-fu fails me. Its by an environmentalist who says any, say "avoid poisoning fish" advice stands against a massive "the line must go up" mythology. He compares it to the geocentrism of the Church; how the Sun, Moon and starts rotate around us and provides for humanity; and how heliocentrism also had to stand up against this massive mythology.

popalchemist 1y ago
Depth psychology would suggest that mythology is an emergent phenomenon of the psyche; there is no removing it. Better to understand that it is there and how it works. It is precisely due to this myth-making faculty that in the absence of a legit mythos (i.e. that of Christianity, which was the dominant cosmo-conception / worldview in the west for most of our history) the vacuum of power that is left by the absence of a God figure will be replaced by the nearest approximate/surrogate the psyche can find. This is how we elevate celebrities like Trump to the status of a God-king who can do no wrong.
- blooalien 1y ago
  > "This is how we elevate celebrities like Trump to the status of a God-king who can do no wrong." I've long wondered about that even as I've watched the shift intensify over the decades, but in the context you describe, the MAGA death-cult starts to sorta come into focus a bit more. As they've abandoned "God" (as evidenced by so many of their actions going directly contrary to the teachings of Jesus in their own bible) they need a replacement god-figure to worship (one more in-line with the baser desires that they're choosing to embody). I still find it genuinely insane that their worship of one man leads them to fully embrace the downfall of civilized and thoughtful interaction so completely that it becomes a literal existential risk for humanity. > "Better to understand that it is there and how it works." This is the way to overcome / work around so many of our basic human "design flaws". Understanding and being aware of those things allows you to take actions to adjust in beneficial ways. This is one of the "special things" that truly separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom; Our ability to outright defy our "baser instincts" (at least some of us, anyhow).

mingus88 1y ago

Dragons of Eden was formative for me. I feel like the current generation of young people don’t have anyone like Carl Sagan to bring a sense of wonder to science and exploration. It makes me sad.

blooalien 1y ago
> "I feel like the current generation of young people don’t have anyone like Carl Sagan to bring a sense of wonder to science and exploration. It makes me sad." The closest I've seen in modern times is maybe [Neil DeGrasse Tyson][1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson
- Yiin 1y ago
  hank green, Veritasium, Mark Rober, SmarterEveryDay
  - blooalien 1y ago
    Oh yeah, duh! I totally forgot about YouTube... Tons of great science communicators on YouTube! I should know better. I've learned truck-loads of great "sciencey" skills and knowledge from YouTubers.
mayanraisins 1y ago
Sean Carroll, author of the book The Big Picture and host of the Mindscape podcast, has been this for me. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_M._Carroll https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_M._Carroll