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Point taken, thanks! Re: Russia deliberately targets civilians, but being totally inept, misses and hits different civilians. -- Yep, absolutely, but this is u

Point taken, thanks! Re: Russia deliberately targets civilians, but being totally inept, misses and hits different civilians. -- Yep, absolutely, but this is unfalsifiable I guess. I mean, maybe they're targeting hostile aliens from space, but being inept, [...] Re: Why do you think that? -- I extrapolate from Putin's allies really. Hamas specifically (and very vocally / proudly) targets civilians, Hezbollah targets civilians, Iran and Houthis routinely fire ballistic missiles at residential areas. (I'm only listing things I've actually witnessed, as a noncombatant.) So intuitively they're all in the same bucket. I'll be happy to be completely wrong about Russia in this regard.

tim333 1y ago
There's this, though with a drone https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/06/17/russia-uses-drones-to-target-civilians-in-alarming-development https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/06/17/russia-uses-drones-to-ta...
- drysine 1y ago
  Here is one of the top Ukrainian propagandists posting in his personal channel a video from Belgorod (Russia) that shows wounded Russian women screaming and thrashing in agony (the text reads "Happy New Year, bitches") after Ukrainian MLRS strike at the city: https://t.me/dmytrogordon_official/39688 https://t.me/dmytrogordon_official/39688 Here is the Ukraine targeting the same high-rise apartment building in Kazan with multiple drones: https://t.me/readovkanews/91042 https://t.me/readovkanews/91042 Here is the Ukraine blowing a bridge in Russia exactly when a passenger train was passing under it leading to deaths of civilians including children: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/01/deaths-as-russian-train-hits-collapsed-bridge-after-interference https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/01/deaths-as-russ... Here are a paramedic and an ambulance driver murdered by Ukrainian drone near Sudzha (Kurskaya oblast): https://t.me/readovkanews/85353 https://t.me/readovkanews/85353 I could go on and on. Which conclusions do you draw from that about the current Ukrainian regime or Ukrainian nationalists?
  - tim333 1y ago
    I'd say it's a fine example of whataboutism in an argument. The fact that other people in history have committed atrocities does not mean it's hunky dory to Russia to murder people.
    - drysine 1y ago
      >that other people in history What? It's atrocities that are being committed right now by the Ukraine. Do they mean that "Ukraine deliberately targets Russian civilians"?
      - tim333 1y ago
        The discussion was on whether Russia targets civilians or not. That is not really a function of whether Ukraine does. If you want to drag Russia vs Ukraine in, obviously Russia is hugely worse as the aggressor with their rapes and torture chambers and the like. I'm not Ukrainian or Russian and I don't think I've seen a clearer good vs evil war in my lifetime.
        drysine 1y ago
        >That is not really a function of whether Ukraine does It's a function of what you call what the Ukraine does. If you use a report of an isolated episode to justify the claim that "Russia deliberately targets civilians" accompanying all Western reporting on Russian strikes, than you surely must accept the statement that "Ukrainian soldiers have swastika tatoos"[0]. Do you? >with their rapes and torture chambers and the like You forgot the infants raped with teaspoons and Viagra kits distributed to Russian soldiers, all according to Ukrainian sources and Western politicians and media. Having said that, I'm sure war crimes happen just like in any war. >I don't think I've seen a clearer good vs evil war in my lifetime That's exactly what Western media wants you to think. Russian state media wants Russians think the same. [0] https://www.lemonde.fr/videos/video/2025/06/18/guerre-en-ukraine-au-sein-de-la-3e-brigade-d-assaut-ukrainienne-des-centaines-de-soldats-arborent-toujours-des-symboles-neonazis_6614140_1669088.html https://www.lemonde.fr/videos/video/2025/06/18/guerre-en-ukr...
drysine 1y ago
>I extrapolate from Putin's allies really. ... they're all in the same bucket Hamas, Hezbolla or Houthis are hardly Russian allies. Iran isn't fighting on the Russian side like North Korea did, but I guess you can call them an ally of sorts. Here is a bit about Israel, which supports the Ukraine: Two of the sources told the outlets that in the first few weeks of the war, the IDF allowed up to 15 or 20 civilian deaths for every low-ranking Hamas militant assassinated. That number could increase to up to more than 100 civilians if the IDF were targeting a single senior Hamas official, the sources said. "There was a completely permissive policy regarding the casualties of operations," one source said, according to the report. "A policy so permissive that in my opinion it had an element of revenge." [0] Assuming that's true, should we extrapolate that too? [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/israelis-military-idf-civilian-casualties-ratio-hamas-972-report-2024-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/israelis-military-idf-civili...
- animuchan 1y ago
  > Hamas, Hezbolla or Houthis are hardly Russian allies I beg to differ. * Russia sent missiles to Houthis just this year. Also assists with intelligence for attacks, at least according to https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/10/26/russia-provides-targeting-support-to-houthi-attacks-on-commercial-shipping/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/10/26/russia-provides-targ... * The meeting where Putin says they have longstanding ties with Hamas: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2025/04/17/putin-meets-with-russians-freed-by-hamas-praises-moscows-ties-with-palestine-a88766 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2025/04/17/putin-meets-with-r... Iran, well, we agree: they're very much aligned politically, seem to have shared weapon programs (rumor has it, Iran's Shahed drone == RF's Geran' drone). Having said all that, I now realize that I must've misused the word ally to mean political sympathizer, my bad. I meant "closely aligned" more than anything, like when the Russian media says "Anglo-saxons" to describe the political bloc. Re: Assuming that's true, should we extrapolate that too? -- Honestly, maybe? I don't have an opinion, much less an educated one.
  - drysine 1y ago
    >Russia sent missiles to Houthis just this year. The article says it didn't happen, just that maybe some people disembarked. >The meeting where Putin says they have longstanding ties with Hamas That's not exactly what he said: "Russia’s stable, long-term relationships with the Palestinian people, their representatives and various organizations". If you deal with Palestine you have to deal with Hamas. Russia has stable, long-term relationship with Israel too. >I meant "closely aligned" more than anything To some degree, what degree is that is debatable. It's more like the enemy of my enemy (the US) thing if you ask my opinion. >rumor has it, Iran's Shahed drone == RF's Geran' drone Russia used to import Shahed drones, than organized their production domestically with Iranian help, improved the design, greatly scaled the production, created a decoy version and a jet-powered version. >Honestly, maybe? I don't have an opinion, much less an educated one. I'd rather not extrapolate in both cases)

tim333 1y ago

There's this, though with a drone https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/06/17/russia-uses-drones-to-target-civilians-in-alarming-development https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/06/17/russia-uses-drones-to-ta...

drysine 1y ago
Here is one of the top Ukrainian propagandists posting in his personal channel a video from Belgorod (Russia) that shows wounded Russian women screaming and thrashing in agony (the text reads "Happy New Year, bitches") after Ukrainian MLRS strike at the city: https://t.me/dmytrogordon_official/39688 https://t.me/dmytrogordon_official/39688 Here is the Ukraine targeting the same high-rise apartment building in Kazan with multiple drones: https://t.me/readovkanews/91042 https://t.me/readovkanews/91042 Here is the Ukraine blowing a bridge in Russia exactly when a passenger train was passing under it leading to deaths of civilians including children: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/01/deaths-as-russian-train-hits-collapsed-bridge-after-interference https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/01/deaths-as-russ... Here are a paramedic and an ambulance driver murdered by Ukrainian drone near Sudzha (Kurskaya oblast): https://t.me/readovkanews/85353 https://t.me/readovkanews/85353 I could go on and on. Which conclusions do you draw from that about the current Ukrainian regime or Ukrainian nationalists?
- tim333 1y ago
  I'd say it's a fine example of whataboutism in an argument. The fact that other people in history have committed atrocities does not mean it's hunky dory to Russia to murder people.
  - drysine 1y ago
    >that other people in history What? It's atrocities that are being committed right now by the Ukraine. Do they mean that "Ukraine deliberately targets Russian civilians"?
    - tim333 1y ago
      The discussion was on whether Russia targets civilians or not. That is not really a function of whether Ukraine does. If you want to drag Russia vs Ukraine in, obviously Russia is hugely worse as the aggressor with their rapes and torture chambers and the like. I'm not Ukrainian or Russian and I don't think I've seen a clearer good vs evil war in my lifetime.
      - drysine 1y ago
        >That is not really a function of whether Ukraine does It's a function of what you call what the Ukraine does. If you use a report of an isolated episode to justify the claim that "Russia deliberately targets civilians" accompanying all Western reporting on Russian strikes, than you surely must accept the statement that "Ukrainian soldiers have swastika tatoos"[0]. Do you? >with their rapes and torture chambers and the like You forgot the infants raped with teaspoons and Viagra kits distributed to Russian soldiers, all according to Ukrainian sources and Western politicians and media. Having said that, I'm sure war crimes happen just like in any war. >I don't think I've seen a clearer good vs evil war in my lifetime That's exactly what Western media wants you to think. Russian state media wants Russians think the same. [0] https://www.lemonde.fr/videos/video/2025/06/18/guerre-en-ukraine-au-sein-de-la-3e-brigade-d-assaut-ukrainienne-des-centaines-de-soldats-arborent-toujours-des-symboles-neonazis_6614140_1669088.html https://www.lemonde.fr/videos/video/2025/06/18/guerre-en-ukr...

drysine 1y ago

>I extrapolate from Putin's allies really. ... they're all in the same bucket Hamas, Hezbolla or Houthis are hardly Russian allies. Iran isn't fighting on the Russian side like North Korea did, but I guess you can call them an ally of sorts. Here is a bit about Israel, which supports the Ukraine: Two of the sources told the outlets that in the first few weeks of the war, the IDF allowed up to 15 or 20 civilian deaths for every low-ranking Hamas militant assassinated. That number could increase to up to more than 100 civilians if the IDF were targeting a single senior Hamas official, the sources said. "There was a completely permissive policy regarding the casualties of operations," one source said, according to the report. "A policy so permissive that in my opinion it had an element of revenge." [0] Assuming that's true, should we extrapolate that too? [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/israelis-military-idf-civilian-casualties-ratio-hamas-972-report-2024-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/israelis-military-idf-civili...

animuchan 1y ago
> Hamas, Hezbolla or Houthis are hardly Russian allies I beg to differ. * Russia sent missiles to Houthis just this year. Also assists with intelligence for attacks, at least according to https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/10/26/russia-provides-targeting-support-to-houthi-attacks-on-commercial-shipping/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/10/26/russia-provides-targ... * The meeting where Putin says they have longstanding ties with Hamas: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2025/04/17/putin-meets-with-russians-freed-by-hamas-praises-moscows-ties-with-palestine-a88766 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2025/04/17/putin-meets-with-r... Iran, well, we agree: they're very much aligned politically, seem to have shared weapon programs (rumor has it, Iran's Shahed drone == RF's Geran' drone). Having said all that, I now realize that I must've misused the word ally to mean political sympathizer, my bad. I meant "closely aligned" more than anything, like when the Russian media says "Anglo-saxons" to describe the political bloc. Re: Assuming that's true, should we extrapolate that too? -- Honestly, maybe? I don't have an opinion, much less an educated one.
- drysine 1y ago
  >Russia sent missiles to Houthis just this year. The article says it didn't happen, just that maybe some people disembarked. >The meeting where Putin says they have longstanding ties with Hamas That's not exactly what he said: "Russia’s stable, long-term relationships with the Palestinian people, their representatives and various organizations". If you deal with Palestine you have to deal with Hamas. Russia has stable, long-term relationship with Israel too. >I meant "closely aligned" more than anything To some degree, what degree is that is debatable. It's more like the enemy of my enemy (the US) thing if you ask my opinion. >rumor has it, Iran's Shahed drone == RF's Geran' drone Russia used to import Shahed drones, than organized their production domestically with Iranian help, improved the design, greatly scaled the production, created a decoy version and a jet-powered version. >Honestly, maybe? I don't have an opinion, much less an educated one. I'd rather not extrapolate in both cases)