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In my experience watching their mods over the years, they seem to have a big problem with other people having opinions they disagree with. I get the feeling li

In my experience watching their mods over the years, they seem to have a big problem with other people having opinions they disagree with. I get the feeling like their insistence on things like CoCs is ultimately just used as a false flag to censor "wrong" opinions based on colorful interpretations of subjective terminology used in the policy. And they're moderators, so, what they say is already "the law" (at least in their eyes) anyways... don't need a code of conduct to tell people the mods have the final say regardless.

zahlman 1y ago
> I get the feeling like their insistence on things like CoCs is ultimately just used as a false flag to censor "wrong" opinions based on colorful interpretations of subjective terminology used in the policy. I don't think the term "false flag" works that way, but it 110% is exactly that. Consider how they frame the proposal to add other mods: > intially phrased as a suggestion, with a stated goal of adding “diversity of opinion” and “tension” to the moderation team > apparently trying to address perceptions of political bias by making political appointments > despite this suggestion being immediately rejected as destructive and misguided by the moderation team Which is to say, they think it's inherently wrong to put people on the mod team who disagree with their political views, when they don't even moderate a space that's about politics. This is what you get when you have an unelected body that appoints its own successors and give it the power to enforce "conduct". ... Incidentally, this also perfectly describes the Python Software Foundation's "work groups" for their Code of Conduct (https://wiki.python.org/psf/ConductWG/Charter https://wiki.python.org/psf/ConductWG/Charter) and for "diversity and inclusion" (https://wiki.python.org/psf/DiversityandInclusionWG https://wiki.python.org/psf/DiversityandInclusionWG). (Actually, it seems like most of the work groups work this way.) I'm also amused at how both of these charters refer to "Folks" rather than, say "People". Seems to me like a clear signal of the intended culture, frankly.
- squigz 1y ago
  > Which is to say, they think it's inherently wrong to put people on the mod team who disagree with their political views, when they don't even moderate a space that's about politics. My reading of that is they think it's inherently wrong to add people to the mod team because they disagree with their political views. Which seems reasonable to me.
  - zahlman 1y ago
    > Which seems reasonable to me. Surely the SC had other criteria in mind as well.
    - squigz 1y ago
      Maybe, but it seems that might have been their deciding factor: > despite the specific candidate being rejected as unsuitable by the moderation team, and agreement from SC that at least some of the reasons discussed were disqualifying
  - ranger_danger 1y ago
    Are you saying moderators should be chosen based on their political beliefs?
    - thunderfork 1y ago
      [dead]
- taink 1y ago
  Can you elaborate on using "folks" instead of "people"? I'm unfamiliar with the difference as english is not my first language. For reference, to my knowledge these words are pretty much interchangeable with "folks" being less formal I guess.
  - Macha 1y ago
    Using the casual “folks” in a context that would ordinarily be more formal is considered a bit more liberal I guess.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - zahlman 1y ago
    > For reference, to my knowledge these words are pretty much interchangeable with "folks" being less formal I guess. "folks" is indeed less formal, but there are other words in this category, such as "guys". The preference for "folks" is common among people who hold that "guys" is inherently sexist, and thus eventually becomes a signal of a particular perception of what kinds of sexism exist in the world and how sexism works. There are also those who believe that certain uses of "people" have become in some way or another problematic In print contexts, some even further use this to signal especial interest in issues related to trans rights, by spelling it "folx". That requires the additional explanation that the "x" comes from analogy with other neologisms such as "latinx" that are intended not only to affirm gender neutrality but a non-binary view of gender. Because the reader is expected to recognize this, it functions as a sort of shibboleth. Possibly useful references: https://old.reddit.com/r/socialjustice101/comments/agozlt https://old.reddit.com/r/socialjustice101/comments/agozlt ; https://old.reddit.com/r/socialjustice101/comments/itiisx https://old.reddit.com/r/socialjustice101/comments/itiisx ; https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/523419/ https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/523419/ ; https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gendered-language-hey-guys_l_5f21b189c5b6b8cd63b0f331 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gendered-language-hey-guys_l_... As little as ten years ago, "folks" might have been judged as quaint or outdated language, used primarily by older people (https://hinative.com/questions/51383 https://hinative.com/questions/51383). It was largely repurposed for this social justice signaling. Also notably, you will find people with similar beliefs using expressions like "y'all" and other Southern US regionalisms, even if they're white Northerners. From my observations this seems to be intended as an act of solidarity. "Folks" arguably also belongs in this category.

zahlman 1y ago

> I get the feeling like their insistence on things like CoCs is ultimately just used as a false flag to censor "wrong" opinions based on colorful interpretations of subjective terminology used in the policy. I don't think the term "false flag" works that way, but it 110% is exactly that. Consider how they frame the proposal to add other mods: > intially phrased as a suggestion, with a stated goal of adding “diversity of opinion” and “tension” to the moderation team > apparently trying to address perceptions of political bias by making political appointments > despite this suggestion being immediately rejected as destructive and misguided by the moderation team Which is to say, they think it's inherently wrong to put people on the mod team who disagree with their political views, when they don't even moderate a space that's about politics. This is what you get when you have an unelected body that appoints its own successors and give it the power to enforce "conduct". ... Incidentally, this also perfectly describes the Python Software Foundation's "work groups" for their Code of Conduct (https://wiki.python.org/psf/ConductWG/Charter https://wiki.python.org/psf/ConductWG/Charter) and for "diversity and inclusion" (https://wiki.python.org/psf/DiversityandInclusionWG https://wiki.python.org/psf/DiversityandInclusionWG). (Actually, it seems like most of the work groups work this way.) I'm also amused at how both of these charters refer to "Folks" rather than, say "People". Seems to me like a clear signal of the intended culture, frankly.

squigz 1y ago
> Which is to say, they think it's inherently wrong to put people on the mod team who disagree with their political views, when they don't even moderate a space that's about politics. My reading of that is they think it's inherently wrong to add people to the mod team because they disagree with their political views. Which seems reasonable to me.
- zahlman 1y ago
  > Which seems reasonable to me. Surely the SC had other criteria in mind as well.
  - squigz 1y ago
    Maybe, but it seems that might have been their deciding factor: > despite the specific candidate being rejected as unsuitable by the moderation team, and agreement from SC that at least some of the reasons discussed were disqualifying
- ranger_danger 1y ago
  Are you saying moderators should be chosen based on their political beliefs?
  - thunderfork 1y ago
    [dead]
taink 1y ago
Can you elaborate on using "folks" instead of "people"? I'm unfamiliar with the difference as english is not my first language. For reference, to my knowledge these words are pretty much interchangeable with "folks" being less formal I guess.
- Macha 1y ago
  Using the casual “folks” in a context that would ordinarily be more formal is considered a bit more liberal I guess.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- zahlman 1y ago
  > For reference, to my knowledge these words are pretty much interchangeable with "folks" being less formal I guess. "folks" is indeed less formal, but there are other words in this category, such as "guys". The preference for "folks" is common among people who hold that "guys" is inherently sexist, and thus eventually becomes a signal of a particular perception of what kinds of sexism exist in the world and how sexism works. There are also those who believe that certain uses of "people" have become in some way or another problematic In print contexts, some even further use this to signal especial interest in issues related to trans rights, by spelling it "folx". That requires the additional explanation that the "x" comes from analogy with other neologisms such as "latinx" that are intended not only to affirm gender neutrality but a non-binary view of gender. Because the reader is expected to recognize this, it functions as a sort of shibboleth. Possibly useful references: https://old.reddit.com/r/socialjustice101/comments/agozlt https://old.reddit.com/r/socialjustice101/comments/agozlt ; https://old.reddit.com/r/socialjustice101/comments/itiisx https://old.reddit.com/r/socialjustice101/comments/itiisx ; https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/523419/ https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/523419/ ; https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gendered-language-hey-guys_l_5f21b189c5b6b8cd63b0f331 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gendered-language-hey-guys_l_... As little as ten years ago, "folks" might have been judged as quaint or outdated language, used primarily by older people (https://hinative.com/questions/51383 https://hinative.com/questions/51383). It was largely repurposed for this social justice signaling. Also notably, you will find people with similar beliefs using expressions like "y'all" and other Southern US regionalisms, even if they're white Northerners. From my observations this seems to be intended as an act of solidarity. "Folks" arguably also belongs in this category.