4 ms·

You are kinda calling for Communism without spelling it out, I think.

dizzydes 1y ago
If AGI occurs some form of communism will be necessary no? How else will they cover all the costs of UBI? It's our work/earths resources/internet its been born from, it should benefit us all.
- Ray20 1y ago
  How does the occurring of AGI lead to the need for UBI?
  - dizzydes 1y ago
    I'm assuming there won't be more meaningful work for most of population to do that AI can't do. Some people think the opposite. That seems to be the main point of contention.
  - brador 1y ago
    Solve for bread or the circus is free.
raincole 1y ago
Of course. If AGI becomes real I don't see any reason to keep a capitalism society. Ultimately capitalism works because it incentivizes people to produce goods and services efficiently. If AI is more efficient than humans in every single aspect then what's the point of giving people economic incentives?
- visarga 1y ago
  Things still cost money. There are always scarcities. For example cells already reached exponential self replication capabilities long ago, but eventually hit environment constraints. It became a struggle for survival, but under infinite resources they would infinitely replicate without effort instead of evolving.
  - loa_in_ 1y ago
    We're much closer to modelling cells than humans, yet we still pretend like we're already there somehow on both accounts.
  - red_rech 1y ago
    Don’t worry, the AI cokeheads have told me that LLMs will usher in Star Trek post scarcity.
- Ray20 1y ago
  It's funny that just over 100 years ago, they were saying EXACTLY the same thing about electricity. Ultimately, history has shown all the reasons to to keep a capitalism society.
  - raincole 1y ago
    100 years ago people said electricity would be more efficient than humans in every single aspect? They said electricity would invent more efficient way to generate electricity itself? That's news to me! Some people were really ahead of their time.
    - Ray20 1y ago
      > 100 years ago people said electricity would be more efficient than humans in every single aspect? Yes, literally.
isoprophlex 1y ago
Let's call it Commonism then. Where we recognize the need for economic activity that furthers whatever we humans have in common. Instead of tumour-like, zero-sum, number must go up turbocapitalism that just concentrates wealth.
stego-tech 1y ago
Because too many HN folk see that word and recoil as they're only casually "familiar" with human attempts at it during the era of scarcity as told by mass media, with no understanding as to the reality of why said systems failed or succeeded. In a post-scarcity society (which we're technically in now, if we took this seriously), Communism is a more appropriate model of governance than Capitalism. It would ensure a more equitable distribution of resources, incentivize stronger environmental policies to minimize waste, and drive technological innovation towards preservation (of truly scarce resources - rare elements, for instance) over extraction. The problem is that humans desire power for themselves and the humiliation of others, which results in every method of governance becoming corrupted over time, especially if it doesn't see regular change to address its weaknesses (as we see now with neoliberal societies resisting populism on both extremes of the political scale). Combined with centuries of nationstates lumbering onwards and fighting for their own survival in an increasingly nebulous and ever-shifting digital landscape, and no wonder things are a tinderbox. All that being said, Communism is an (maybe not the, but an) appropriate choice for a post-scarcity, post-AGI society. It's something we need to discuss in earnest now, and start dismantling Capitalism where feasible to lay the foundation for what comes next. As others (myself included) have pointed out repeatedly, this is likely the last warning we'll get before AGI arrives. It's highly unlikely LLMs and current technology will give rise to AGI, but it's almost a certainty that we'll see actual glimmers of AGI within the next fifty years - and once that genie is out of the bottle, we'll be "locked in" to whatever society we've created for ourselves, until and unless we leave our planet behind and can experiment with our own alternatives at scale. Good craftsmen know when they've reached the limits of their current tooling. We need to recognize that Capitalism is the wrong tool for an AGI era if we value our humanity.
- Ray20 1y ago
  >In a post-scarcity society Human needs unlimited. There can't be any "post-scarcity society". The transition point to a post-scarcity society is in the eyes of the beholder, and moves away from them at the same speed with which they approach it. From the perspective of the hundreds of millions of people working for 10 cents an hour, any American, even the poorest of them, whose only available job is a minimum wage of $8 an hour, has long since passed that point of post-scarcity society. But try convincing minimum wage American that he's beyond that point and that he needs to give up $6 out of $8 because "there are no scarcity after $2 per hour". Then you will know the real opinion of people about "more equitable distribution of resources, incentivize stronger environmental policies to minimize waste, and drive technological innovation towards preservation"
general1465 1y ago
And some hybrid of capitalism and socialism eventually will happen. Target would be to prevent rich few from hoarding wealth and force them to put it back into economy. Otherwise people with nothing to lose will just repeat social revolutions from 19-20th century.

If AGI occurs some form of communism will be necessary no? How else will they cover all the costs of UBI? It's our work/earths resources/internet its been born from, it should benefit us all.

Ray20 1y ago
How does the occurring of AGI lead to the need for UBI?
- dizzydes 1y ago
  I'm assuming there won't be more meaningful work for most of population to do that AI can't do. Some people think the opposite. That seems to be the main point of contention.
- brador 1y ago
  Solve for bread or the circus is free.

raincole 1y ago

Of course. If AGI becomes real I don't see any reason to keep a capitalism society. Ultimately capitalism works because it incentivizes people to produce goods and services efficiently. If AI is more efficient than humans in every single aspect then what's the point of giving people economic incentives?

visarga 1y ago
Things still cost money. There are always scarcities. For example cells already reached exponential self replication capabilities long ago, but eventually hit environment constraints. It became a struggle for survival, but under infinite resources they would infinitely replicate without effort instead of evolving.
- loa_in_ 1y ago
  We're much closer to modelling cells than humans, yet we still pretend like we're already there somehow on both accounts.
- red_rech 1y ago
  Don’t worry, the AI cokeheads have told me that LLMs will usher in Star Trek post scarcity.
Ray20 1y ago
It's funny that just over 100 years ago, they were saying EXACTLY the same thing about electricity. Ultimately, history has shown all the reasons to to keep a capitalism society.
- raincole 1y ago
  100 years ago people said electricity would be more efficient than humans in every single aspect? They said electricity would invent more efficient way to generate electricity itself? That's news to me! Some people were really ahead of their time.
  - Ray20 1y ago
    > 100 years ago people said electricity would be more efficient than humans in every single aspect? Yes, literally.

isoprophlex 1y ago

Let's call it Commonism then. Where we recognize the need for economic activity that furthers whatever we humans have in common. Instead of tumour-like, zero-sum, number must go up turbocapitalism that just concentrates wealth.

stego-tech 1y ago

Because too many HN folk see that word and recoil as they're only casually "familiar" with human attempts at it during the era of scarcity as told by mass media, with no understanding as to the reality of why said systems failed or succeeded. In a post-scarcity society (which we're technically in now, if we took this seriously), Communism is a more appropriate model of governance than Capitalism. It would ensure a more equitable distribution of resources, incentivize stronger environmental policies to minimize waste, and drive technological innovation towards preservation (of truly scarce resources - rare elements, for instance) over extraction. The problem is that humans desire power for themselves and the humiliation of others, which results in every method of governance becoming corrupted over time, especially if it doesn't see regular change to address its weaknesses (as we see now with neoliberal societies resisting populism on both extremes of the political scale). Combined with centuries of nationstates lumbering onwards and fighting for their own survival in an increasingly nebulous and ever-shifting digital landscape, and no wonder things are a tinderbox. All that being said, Communism is an (maybe not the, but an) appropriate choice for a post-scarcity, post-AGI society. It's something we need to discuss in earnest now, and start dismantling Capitalism where feasible to lay the foundation for what comes next. As others (myself included) have pointed out repeatedly, this is likely the last warning we'll get before AGI arrives. It's highly unlikely LLMs and current technology will give rise to AGI, but it's almost a certainty that we'll see actual glimmers of AGI within the next fifty years - and once that genie is out of the bottle, we'll be "locked in" to whatever society we've created for ourselves, until and unless we leave our planet behind and can experiment with our own alternatives at scale. Good craftsmen know when they've reached the limits of their current tooling. We need to recognize that Capitalism is the wrong tool for an AGI era if we value our humanity.

Ray20 1y ago
>In a post-scarcity society Human needs unlimited. There can't be any "post-scarcity society". The transition point to a post-scarcity society is in the eyes of the beholder, and moves away from them at the same speed with which they approach it. From the perspective of the hundreds of millions of people working for 10 cents an hour, any American, even the poorest of them, whose only available job is a minimum wage of $8 an hour, has long since passed that point of post-scarcity society. But try convincing minimum wage American that he's beyond that point and that he needs to give up $6 out of $8 because "there are no scarcity after $2 per hour". Then you will know the real opinion of people about "more equitable distribution of resources, incentivize stronger environmental policies to minimize waste, and drive technological innovation towards preservation"

general1465 1y ago

And some hybrid of capitalism and socialism eventually will happen. Target would be to prevent rich few from hoarding wealth and force them to put it back into economy. Otherwise people with nothing to lose will just repeat social revolutions from 19-20th century.