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It is interesting how the market for high end audio has changed with the demise of physical media. I don't associate these high end audio brands with the home,

It is interesting how the market for high end audio has changed with the demise of physical media. I don't associate these high end audio brands with the home, however I do associate them with the options on expensive cars. For the average person with a big TV and standard issue sound bar, an expensive home audio setup has limited appeal. What they have is good enough. However, in the automotive market it is a very different game. For starters, if you have to pay a five or six figure sum for your vehicle, where you are already in the game of specifying options, that expensive audio option isn't that expensive when compared to all of the other 'necessary' options, so you might as well tick the box. With high end cars, resale value matters. If you have the base specification then this isn't going to fare too well in the second hand market. With some options you are never going to get your money back, but some are 'mandatory', particularly if they are bundled. It seems to me that this is the lucrative niche for high end audio, not the home or other markets. Plus you can sell someone a ridiculous amount of speakers, for example 22 of them, whereas, in the home, nobody has 22 speakers in their living room.

maqp 1y ago
>an expensive home audio setup has limited appeal The thing is a sound bar can cost more than 2 grand, which gets you nice pair of B&W two-way speakers and an entry-level Marantz, a setup that beats the sound bar any day. Of course I'm a bit unsure what kind of number's you're speaking of.
- bluedino 1y ago
  $150 soundbar setup from Best Buy is good enough for "most people"
  - Arubis 1y ago
    And for those that still care and are willing to put in the legwork, $150 will score you a nice pair of Advents or similar on Craigslist, and almost any receiver you’ll find at your local thrift store will beat the pants off a cheap soundbar.
    - bluedino 1y ago
      Never seen any decent audio gear at a thrift store. Plus, does all of that stuff integrate with your tv remote like the right soundbar can? Most people don't want multiple remotes or have to manually turn a receiver etc on
      - skydhash 1y ago
        As long as it's a recent enough AVR. The technology name is HDMI-CEC.
  - baq 1y ago
    It probably is for listening at -30… don’t let it play anywhere louder though.
  - maqp 1y ago
    Yeah sure, but this guy was talking about luxury cars. I've seen B&W bundled in Maseratis, Aston Martins and McLarens. BMWs and Volvos too but that's a more recent market expansion. Personally I think think the soundbars are a waste given that they'll never beat the stereo imaging you get from the second hand entry-level Hi-Fi. Soundbar is more convenient and I totally get many people don't always use it for intensive listening sessions, they just need a bit more tear free volume than the TV can output and maybe some background music.
- magicalhippo 1y ago
  > pair of B&W two-way speakers Except that won't put the dialogs where they should be, in the center. Back in the days I got a surround receiver and added a center speaker to my parent's regular two-speaker setup, and it was dramatically different feel when watching movies.
  - maqp 1y ago
    That's up to the mixing. If it's a surround system, sure it's better the dialogue comes from the right place in the scene. But if you have stereo speakers properly placed https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/messages/34579/705942.jpg https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/messages/34579/705942.... (basically on both sides of the TV with you sitting from each speakers by their distance from one another), the stereo imaging will absolutely be able to place dialogue in the center. But it can also produce wider sound stage than a soundbar, which is half my point, the other being better sound pressure and dynamics from the larger speakers. Surround is of course better. But the price is usually the issue. One good option is to start with decent pair of two-ways that you can move to rear if you decide to go surround later. Then you only need the three center speakers and maybe the sub. The amp can be either future proofed by going n.1 immediately or upgraded with the jump.
    - magicalhippo 1y ago
      > stereo imaging will absolutely be able to place dialogue in the center For me, if I were to watch alone while sitting straight up in the middle of the couch. Which I almost never do. Either I'm casual or I'm watching with others. I agree with regards to sound quality and dynamic range though. We have a soundbar in the main livingroom of good quality, but as expected it has no lower end. I got the stereo+center speaker setup in the basement with the big TV, they're just bookshelf sized but on stands with center just below TV. They're enough that our neighbors would complain if they were home when I crank it up, and have much better clarity for normal sounds and dialog.
  - globular-toast 1y ago
    It will it you sit right in the middle. In fact it will be better than a centre speaker unless you mount the centre speaker behind the screen which hardly anyone does (you need either an acoustically transparent projector screen or Sony make some TVs that support this). Unfortunately this only works for one person, though.
bluedino 1y ago
There are some bad "high end" factory systems. Looking at you, Ford and B&O.
lowbloodsugar 1y ago
There used to be a “mid range” market for $2000 amps and things. I suspect that those people want good enough sound and will happily just use a fancy sound bar and sub. Especially since Marantz was bought and just started churning out middle of the road shite. There still exists a market for $25,000 Trinnov.
- AdrianB1 1y ago
  I think I was one of the people desiring a mid range setup, but I found it very hard to justify when the "good enough" is 10-20 times cheaper. Based on perceived value, the $2000 mid range price looks 2-4 times too big for me and there is no sign of adjustment, what you can find at $3-500 is mostly garbage. Audio is not like a graphics card, but people understand that you can buy at $500 a GPU that is ~ 2 times faster than a $200 one. The low end in audio is tens of dollars and there is nothing good in the hundreds of dollars range.
  - NetMageSCW 1y ago
    A Yamaha RX-V4A is $400 and the RX-V line goes up from there. (Yes, I like Yamaha audio equipment.)
    - AdrianB1 1y ago
      I like Yamaha, I have an older one in my living room, but for the $550 (local price) I am not extatic of what it offers. The digital part is a joke, it has a DAC in it but I cannot use a laptop as a digital source over USB, it has an Ethernet port, but it cannot use it for an embedded management web site, you need to run a phone app for that. My $15 relay controlling the lights has WiFi and embedded management web site, a $550 AV received does not. Also you cannot play movies, only music, even if it has in it what it takes for that. Figured out why? And this is not Yamaha, everyone is selling the same stuff. You can find cheaper Chinese integrated DAC + amplifiers, WiFi and BT with more modern stuff in it. Yes, the amp part is much lower quality, but you need features, convenience, great user experience, not just good audio. At least with the cheap soundbar you don't have high expectations, no disappointments.
pengaru 1y ago
I feel like a big part of it is the masses have less money to burn on big sound systems nor do they have affordable spacious housing to fill with loud sound from the system they can't buy. My first jobs (1990s) paid largely for restoring large speakers I'd garbage picked from the neighborhood and components to drive them. But I was privileged to have a large space at my parents' home and neighbors far enough away I could enjoy the system without the police showing up immediately. Young people have way less buying power today vs. then don't they? It seems like the target audience today is living with headphones connected to smartphones in cramped living spaces riding a constant debt train.

maqp 1y ago

>an expensive home audio setup has limited appeal The thing is a sound bar can cost more than 2 grand, which gets you nice pair of B&W two-way speakers and an entry-level Marantz, a setup that beats the sound bar any day. Of course I'm a bit unsure what kind of number's you're speaking of.

bluedino 1y ago
$150 soundbar setup from Best Buy is good enough for "most people"
- Arubis 1y ago
  And for those that still care and are willing to put in the legwork, $150 will score you a nice pair of Advents or similar on Craigslist, and almost any receiver you’ll find at your local thrift store will beat the pants off a cheap soundbar.
  - bluedino 1y ago
    Never seen any decent audio gear at a thrift store. Plus, does all of that stuff integrate with your tv remote like the right soundbar can? Most people don't want multiple remotes or have to manually turn a receiver etc on
    - skydhash 1y ago
      As long as it's a recent enough AVR. The technology name is HDMI-CEC.
- baq 1y ago
  It probably is for listening at -30… don’t let it play anywhere louder though.
- maqp 1y ago
  Yeah sure, but this guy was talking about luxury cars. I've seen B&W bundled in Maseratis, Aston Martins and McLarens. BMWs and Volvos too but that's a more recent market expansion. Personally I think think the soundbars are a waste given that they'll never beat the stereo imaging you get from the second hand entry-level Hi-Fi. Soundbar is more convenient and I totally get many people don't always use it for intensive listening sessions, they just need a bit more tear free volume than the TV can output and maybe some background music.
magicalhippo 1y ago
> pair of B&W two-way speakers Except that won't put the dialogs where they should be, in the center. Back in the days I got a surround receiver and added a center speaker to my parent's regular two-speaker setup, and it was dramatically different feel when watching movies.
- maqp 1y ago
  That's up to the mixing. If it's a surround system, sure it's better the dialogue comes from the right place in the scene. But if you have stereo speakers properly placed https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/messages/34579/705942.jpg https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/messages/34579/705942.... (basically on both sides of the TV with you sitting from each speakers by their distance from one another), the stereo imaging will absolutely be able to place dialogue in the center. But it can also produce wider sound stage than a soundbar, which is half my point, the other being better sound pressure and dynamics from the larger speakers. Surround is of course better. But the price is usually the issue. One good option is to start with decent pair of two-ways that you can move to rear if you decide to go surround later. Then you only need the three center speakers and maybe the sub. The amp can be either future proofed by going n.1 immediately or upgraded with the jump.
  - magicalhippo 1y ago
    > stereo imaging will absolutely be able to place dialogue in the center For me, if I were to watch alone while sitting straight up in the middle of the couch. Which I almost never do. Either I'm casual or I'm watching with others. I agree with regards to sound quality and dynamic range though. We have a soundbar in the main livingroom of good quality, but as expected it has no lower end. I got the stereo+center speaker setup in the basement with the big TV, they're just bookshelf sized but on stands with center just below TV. They're enough that our neighbors would complain if they were home when I crank it up, and have much better clarity for normal sounds and dialog.
- globular-toast 1y ago
  It will it you sit right in the middle. In fact it will be better than a centre speaker unless you mount the centre speaker behind the screen which hardly anyone does (you need either an acoustically transparent projector screen or Sony make some TVs that support this). Unfortunately this only works for one person, though.

bluedino 1y ago

There are some bad "high end" factory systems. Looking at you, Ford and B&O.

lowbloodsugar 1y ago

There used to be a “mid range” market for $2000 amps and things. I suspect that those people want good enough sound and will happily just use a fancy sound bar and sub. Especially since Marantz was bought and just started churning out middle of the road shite. There still exists a market for $25,000 Trinnov.

AdrianB1 1y ago
I think I was one of the people desiring a mid range setup, but I found it very hard to justify when the "good enough" is 10-20 times cheaper. Based on perceived value, the $2000 mid range price looks 2-4 times too big for me and there is no sign of adjustment, what you can find at $3-500 is mostly garbage. Audio is not like a graphics card, but people understand that you can buy at $500 a GPU that is ~ 2 times faster than a $200 one. The low end in audio is tens of dollars and there is nothing good in the hundreds of dollars range.
- NetMageSCW 1y ago
  A Yamaha RX-V4A is $400 and the RX-V line goes up from there. (Yes, I like Yamaha audio equipment.)
  - AdrianB1 1y ago
    I like Yamaha, I have an older one in my living room, but for the $550 (local price) I am not extatic of what it offers. The digital part is a joke, it has a DAC in it but I cannot use a laptop as a digital source over USB, it has an Ethernet port, but it cannot use it for an embedded management web site, you need to run a phone app for that. My $15 relay controlling the lights has WiFi and embedded management web site, a $550 AV received does not. Also you cannot play movies, only music, even if it has in it what it takes for that. Figured out why? And this is not Yamaha, everyone is selling the same stuff. You can find cheaper Chinese integrated DAC + amplifiers, WiFi and BT with more modern stuff in it. Yes, the amp part is much lower quality, but you need features, convenience, great user experience, not just good audio. At least with the cheap soundbar you don't have high expectations, no disappointments.

pengaru 1y ago

I feel like a big part of it is the masses have less money to burn on big sound systems nor do they have affordable spacious housing to fill with loud sound from the system they can't buy. My first jobs (1990s) paid largely for restoring large speakers I'd garbage picked from the neighborhood and components to drive them. But I was privileged to have a large space at my parents' home and neighbors far enough away I could enjoy the system without the police showing up immediately. Young people have way less buying power today vs. then don't they? It seems like the target audience today is living with headphones connected to smartphones in cramped living spaces riding a constant debt train.