10 ms·

> No sense of touch. Human hands are packed absolutely full of sensors. [...] We store energy in our tendons and reuse it on the next step Side-rant: As cool a

by Terr_ 1y ago

> No sense of touch. Human hands are packed absolutely full of sensors. [...] We store energy in our tendons and reuse it on the next step Side-rant: As cool as some cyberpunk/sci-fi ideas are, I can't imagine a widespread elective mechanical limb replacement within the lifetime of anyone here. We dramatically under-estimate how amazing our normal limbs are. I mean, they're literally swarms of nanobots beyond human comprehension. To recycle an old comment against mechanical limbs: ________ [...] just remember that you're sacrificing raw force/speed for a system with a great deal of other trade-offs which would be difficult for modern science to replicate. 1. Supports a very large number of individual movements and articulations 2. Meets certain weight-restrictions (overall system must be near-buoyant in water) 3. Supports a wide variety of automatic self-repair techniques, many of which can occur without ceasing operation 4. Is entirely produced and usually maintained by unskilled (unconscious?) labor from common raw materials 5. Contains a comprehensive suite of sensors 6. Not too brittle, flexes to store and release mechanical energy from certain impacts 7. Selectively reinforces itself when strain is detected 8. Has areas for the storage of long-term energy reserves, which double as an impact cushion 9. Houses small fabricators to replenish some of its own operating fluids 10. Subsystems for thermal management (evaporative cooling, automatic micro-activation) _______________ I predict the closest thing we might see instead will be just growing replacement biological limbs, followed by waldoes where you remotely control an arm without losing your own.

card_zero 1y ago
Per 5, it says here "Human hands are packed absolutely full of sensors. Getting anywhere near that kind of sensing out of robot hands and usable by a human puppeteer is not currently possible." Then another quote, "No one has managed to get articulated fingers (i.e., fingers with joints in them) that are robust enough, have enough force, nor enough lifetime, for real industrial applications." So (3) and (7) are relevant to lifetime, but another point, related to sensors, is that humans will stop hurting themselves if finger strain occurs, such as by changing their grip or crying off the task entirely. Hands are robust because they can operate at the edge of safe parameters by sensing strain and strategizing around risk. Humans know to come in out of the rain, so to speak.
- kerningije 1y ago
  I have come to realize that we barely understand complexity. I've read a lot on information theory, thermodynamics, many takes on entropy. Not to mention literature on software development, because a lot of this field is managing complexity. We severely underestimate how complex natural systems are. Autonomous agents seem like something we should be able to build. The idea is as old as digital computers. Turing famously wrote about that. But an autonomous complex system is complex to an astronomical degree. Self driving vehicles, let alone autonomous androids, are several orders of magnitude more complex that we can even model.
  - Terr_ 1y ago
    Seems related to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(cybernetics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(cybernetics)
    - kerningije 1y ago
      Yes! Thank you! I have read Wiener and Ashby to reach this conclusion. I've used this argument before. A piece of software capable of creating any possible software would be infinitely complex. Also the reason I don't buy the "20 w general intelligence exists". The wattage for generally intelligent humans would be the entire energy input to the biosphere up to the evolution of humans. Planetary biospheres show general intelligence, not individual chunks of head meat.
      - card_zero 1y ago
        That knowledge held in evolution equates to "training" for an AGI, I guess. Mimicking 4 billion years of evolution shouldn't take that long ... but it does sound kind of expensive now you mention it.
        kerningije 1y ago
        [flagged]
red75prime 1y ago
Yeah, it's cool and all, but I more that once was frustrated that it can't rotate freely, it has only one elbow joint, it can't extend.
- card_zero 1y ago
  You want telescopic rotary jazz hands?
  - red75prime 1y ago
    Sure. I even had a simulated experience of having extendable arms in my dream. So, the control machinery is probably there for some reason.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - jaggederest 1y ago
      One of the things that is true of humans is that we have an extremely mutable body plan and sensorium. https://plasticity-lab.com/body-augmentation https://plasticity-lab.com/body-augmentation https://www.carlosterminel.com/wearable-compass https://www.carlosterminel.com/wearable-compass https://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar97/858984531.Ns.r.html https://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar97/858984531.Ns.r.h... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982209011099 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098220... Bolting on extra senses, tools, limbs is no big deal. Humans are also some of the most physically adaptable animals on the planet, in terms of being able to remodel our bodies to serve new tasks. "specific adaptation to imposed demand" is one of the things that really sets us (and a few other animals) apart in a remarkable way. Few animals can practice and train their bodies like we can. In addition, I understand research shows that people with amputations very quickly adapt both practically and psychologically, as a general principle (some unfortunate folks are stuck with phantom pain and other adaptive issues). The old discussion about "adding 20 minutes to your commute is worse than losing a leg below the knee" takes into account the fact that most people underestimate how large a negative effect commuting has, but also overestimate how large a negative effect losing a portion of a limb has.
mschuster91 1y ago
I'd add an 11th point to expand on #1: supports a very wide range of movement speeds, movement force/torque and movement precision. Take the elbow joint and the muscles it's connected to. It supports very fine precision, slow speed operations as well as high speed but at the same time the same operation at high speeds - say, lifting yourself up on a horizontal bar, assuming adequate strength you can either do a slow or a fast lift, and both at enough precision and torque to prevent your body mass from impacting to the bar which is another feat in itself. Now try to replicate that with a classic mechanical mechanism, you'll always lose either precision, speed or torque.

by Terr_ 1y ago

card_zero 1y ago

Per 5, it says here "Human hands are packed absolutely full of sensors. Getting anywhere near that kind of sensing out of robot hands and usable by a human puppeteer is not currently possible." Then another quote, "No one has managed to get articulated fingers (i.e., fingers with joints in them) that are robust enough, have enough force, nor enough lifetime, for real industrial applications." So (3) and (7) are relevant to lifetime, but another point, related to sensors, is that humans will stop hurting themselves if finger strain occurs, such as by changing their grip or crying off the task entirely. Hands are robust because they can operate at the edge of safe parameters by sensing strain and strategizing around risk. Humans know to come in out of the rain, so to speak.

kerningije 1y ago
I have come to realize that we barely understand complexity. I've read a lot on information theory, thermodynamics, many takes on entropy. Not to mention literature on software development, because a lot of this field is managing complexity. We severely underestimate how complex natural systems are. Autonomous agents seem like something we should be able to build. The idea is as old as digital computers. Turing famously wrote about that. But an autonomous complex system is complex to an astronomical degree. Self driving vehicles, let alone autonomous androids, are several orders of magnitude more complex that we can even model.
- Terr_ 1y ago
  Seems related to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(cybernetics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(cybernetics)
  - kerningije 1y ago
    Yes! Thank you! I have read Wiener and Ashby to reach this conclusion. I've used this argument before. A piece of software capable of creating any possible software would be infinitely complex. Also the reason I don't buy the "20 w general intelligence exists". The wattage for generally intelligent humans would be the entire energy input to the biosphere up to the evolution of humans. Planetary biospheres show general intelligence, not individual chunks of head meat.
    - card_zero 1y ago
      That knowledge held in evolution equates to "training" for an AGI, I guess. Mimicking 4 billion years of evolution shouldn't take that long ... but it does sound kind of expensive now you mention it.
      - kerningije 1y ago
        [flagged]

red75prime 1y ago

Yeah, it's cool and all, but I more that once was frustrated that it can't rotate freely, it has only one elbow joint, it can't extend.

card_zero 1y ago
You want telescopic rotary jazz hands?
- red75prime 1y ago
  Sure. I even had a simulated experience of having extendable arms in my dream. So, the control machinery is probably there for some reason.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - jaggederest 1y ago
    One of the things that is true of humans is that we have an extremely mutable body plan and sensorium. https://plasticity-lab.com/body-augmentation https://plasticity-lab.com/body-augmentation https://www.carlosterminel.com/wearable-compass https://www.carlosterminel.com/wearable-compass https://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar97/858984531.Ns.r.html https://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar97/858984531.Ns.r.h... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982209011099 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098220... Bolting on extra senses, tools, limbs is no big deal. Humans are also some of the most physically adaptable animals on the planet, in terms of being able to remodel our bodies to serve new tasks. "specific adaptation to imposed demand" is one of the things that really sets us (and a few other animals) apart in a remarkable way. Few animals can practice and train their bodies like we can. In addition, I understand research shows that people with amputations very quickly adapt both practically and psychologically, as a general principle (some unfortunate folks are stuck with phantom pain and other adaptive issues). The old discussion about "adding 20 minutes to your commute is worse than losing a leg below the knee" takes into account the fact that most people underestimate how large a negative effect commuting has, but also overestimate how large a negative effect losing a portion of a limb has.

mschuster91 1y ago

I'd add an 11th point to expand on #1: supports a very wide range of movement speeds, movement force/torque and movement precision. Take the elbow joint and the muscles it's connected to. It supports very fine precision, slow speed operations as well as high speed but at the same time the same operation at high speeds - say, lifting yourself up on a horizontal bar, assuming adequate strength you can either do a slow or a fast lift, and both at enough precision and torque to prevent your body mass from impacting to the bar which is another feat in itself. Now try to replicate that with a classic mechanical mechanism, you'll always lose either precision, speed or torque.