3 ms·

> Before too long (and we already start to see this) humanoid robots will get wheels for feet, at first two, and later maybe more, with nothing that any longer

> Before too long (and we already start to see this) humanoid robots will get wheels for feet, at first two, and later maybe more, with nothing that any longer really resembles human legs in gross form. But they will still be called humanoid robots. Totally agree. Wheels are cheaper, more durable and more effective than legs. Human would have wheels if there was an evolution pathway to wheels.

nine_k 1y ago
Wheels are great until the robot encounters uneven surfaces, such as a stairway, or a curb. So some kind of stepping functionality would still be necessary.
cwmoore 1y ago
Power to wheel sensors are the paws. Where is the CNS/brain going?
lvoudour 1y ago
What would be the evolutionary pressure to grow wheels? They are useless without roads
- cwmoore 1y ago
  Roads, i think you answered your own question, would be an evolutionary pressure, hypothetically speaking.
  - card_zero 1y ago
    I sometimes imagine wheeled creatures evolving in a location with a big flat hard surface like the Utah salt flats or the Nazca desert, but I guess there's not much reward for being able to roll around since those places are empty as well as flat. Tumbleweed found some success that way though, maybe?
    - delusional 1y ago
      Is there any biological examples of freely rotating power systems? We have nice rotating joints with muscles to provide power, but I can't think of any joint that would allow the sort of free rotation while also producing torque, a wheeled animal would require.
      - card_zero 1y ago
        Something internal to some shellfish, I believe, a kind of mixing rod that rotates. Hold on, I'll check if it's powered. (Also rotifers but they're tiny.) Hmm, no, it sounds like it's externally powered: > The style consists of a transparent glycoprotein rod which is continuously formed in a cilia-lined sac and extends into the stomach. The cilia rotate the rod, so that it becomes wrapped in strands of mucus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotating_locomotion_in_living_systems#Free_rotation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotating_locomotion_in_living_... Or maybe the cilia ( = wiggly hairs) could be seen as a kind of motor. Depends how you count it and exactly what the set-up is, I can't tell from this.
        delusional 1y ago
        I think I would count internal power created by the rotating component itself. I hadn't though of that possibility, since human made machinery usually has the power producing component located in the main body and transferring that power to a freely rotating component is quite hard. Biological systems wouldn't necessarily look like that, and could feasibly be powered by the wheels themselves deforming as if the wheels were a separate, but connected, biological system. That's quite interesting.
      - KineticLensman 1y ago
        Some microorganisms have cilia that rotate like a propeller. With complex molecular structures to provide a rotor effect
    - xnx 1y ago
      The golden wheel spider lives in the sand dunes of the Namib Desert. When confronted by a spider-hunting wasp, it can perform a "cartwheeling" maneuver to escape. By tucking in its legs and turning onto its side, it can roll down a sand dune.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
recursivecaveat 1y ago
The world is full of curbs, stairs, lips, rugs, vehicles, etc. If you're a human-scale robot then your wheels need really wide base to not tip over all the time, so you are extremely awkward in any kind of moderately constrained space. I wouldn't exchange my legs for wheels. Wheelchair users have to fight all the time for oversights to be corrected. I can see maybe see a wheel-based humanoid robot, but only as a compromise. On the other hand there is not much reason to constrain ourselves to the unstable and tricky bipedal platform or insist on having a really top-heavy human-like torso. You could have 3-4 little legs on a dog scale body with several extra long upwards reaching arms for eg.
Terr_ 1y ago
> if there was an evolution pathway to wheels It's hard to see one. Even a nice flat world with ample incentive and taking good "bearings" for granted, how can you evolve a wheel-organ that maintains a biological connection as well as being able to rotate an indefinite number of time? A few difficult and grotesque endpoints: * The wheel only rotates a fixed number of times before the creature must pivot and "unwind" in the opposite direction. This one seems most plausible, but it's not a real wheel. * The main body builds replacement wheels internally (like tooth enamel) and periodically ejects a "dead" wheel which can be placed onto a spoke. This option would make it easier to generate very tough rim materials though. * A biological quick-release/quick-connect system, where the wheel-organ disconnects to move, but then reconnects to flush waste and get more nutrients. * A communal organism, where wheel-creatures are alive and semi-autonomous, with their own own way to acquire nutrients. Perhaps they would, er... suckle. Eeugh.
- ctack 1y ago
  In one of Philip Pullmans His Dark Material novels there is a race of creatures that have a symbiosis with a tree whose huge perfectly round nut can be grasped by their fore and hind limbs and they roll around that way.
  - protocolture 1y ago
    One of the Animorphs spin offs had them too, it was meant to be specifically genetically engineered or something from distant memory.
- ctack 1y ago
  There are lizards or beetles that tumble down sand dunes. Maybe cartwheeling humans could lead to some adaptation where the whole body becomes the wheel.
  - lupire 1y ago
    Wheels are not balls. Balls are common in nature. Wheels are not. The difference is that wheels need roads, which are not common nature and a large scale artificial objects.
teiferer 1y ago
> Wheels are [...] more effective than legs. Maybe in your living room. But step into a dense forest (which is what we are made for) and that statement will be far away from reality.

nine_k 1y ago

Wheels are great until the robot encounters uneven surfaces, such as a stairway, or a curb. So some kind of stepping functionality would still be necessary.

cwmoore 1y ago

Power to wheel sensors are the paws. Where is the CNS/brain going?

lvoudour 1y ago

What would be the evolutionary pressure to grow wheels? They are useless without roads

cwmoore 1y ago
Roads, i think you answered your own question, would be an evolutionary pressure, hypothetically speaking.
- card_zero 1y ago
  I sometimes imagine wheeled creatures evolving in a location with a big flat hard surface like the Utah salt flats or the Nazca desert, but I guess there's not much reward for being able to roll around since those places are empty as well as flat. Tumbleweed found some success that way though, maybe?
  - delusional 1y ago
    Is there any biological examples of freely rotating power systems? We have nice rotating joints with muscles to provide power, but I can't think of any joint that would allow the sort of free rotation while also producing torque, a wheeled animal would require.
    - card_zero 1y ago
      Something internal to some shellfish, I believe, a kind of mixing rod that rotates. Hold on, I'll check if it's powered. (Also rotifers but they're tiny.) Hmm, no, it sounds like it's externally powered: > The style consists of a transparent glycoprotein rod which is continuously formed in a cilia-lined sac and extends into the stomach. The cilia rotate the rod, so that it becomes wrapped in strands of mucus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotating_locomotion_in_living_systems#Free_rotation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotating_locomotion_in_living_... Or maybe the cilia ( = wiggly hairs) could be seen as a kind of motor. Depends how you count it and exactly what the set-up is, I can't tell from this.
      - delusional 1y ago
        I think I would count internal power created by the rotating component itself. I hadn't though of that possibility, since human made machinery usually has the power producing component located in the main body and transferring that power to a freely rotating component is quite hard. Biological systems wouldn't necessarily look like that, and could feasibly be powered by the wheels themselves deforming as if the wheels were a separate, but connected, biological system. That's quite interesting.
    - KineticLensman 1y ago
      Some microorganisms have cilia that rotate like a propeller. With complex molecular structures to provide a rotor effect
  - xnx 1y ago
    The golden wheel spider lives in the sand dunes of the Namib Desert. When confronted by a spider-hunting wasp, it can perform a "cartwheeling" maneuver to escape. By tucking in its legs and turning onto its side, it can roll down a sand dune.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

recursivecaveat 1y ago

The world is full of curbs, stairs, lips, rugs, vehicles, etc. If you're a human-scale robot then your wheels need really wide base to not tip over all the time, so you are extremely awkward in any kind of moderately constrained space. I wouldn't exchange my legs for wheels. Wheelchair users have to fight all the time for oversights to be corrected. I can see maybe see a wheel-based humanoid robot, but only as a compromise. On the other hand there is not much reason to constrain ourselves to the unstable and tricky bipedal platform or insist on having a really top-heavy human-like torso. You could have 3-4 little legs on a dog scale body with several extra long upwards reaching arms for eg.

Terr_ 1y ago

> if there was an evolution pathway to wheels It's hard to see one. Even a nice flat world with ample incentive and taking good "bearings" for granted, how can you evolve a wheel-organ that maintains a biological connection as well as being able to rotate an indefinite number of time? A few difficult and grotesque endpoints: * The wheel only rotates a fixed number of times before the creature must pivot and "unwind" in the opposite direction. This one seems most plausible, but it's not a real wheel. * The main body builds replacement wheels internally (like tooth enamel) and periodically ejects a "dead" wheel which can be placed onto a spoke. This option would make it easier to generate very tough rim materials though. * A biological quick-release/quick-connect system, where the wheel-organ disconnects to move, but then reconnects to flush waste and get more nutrients. * A communal organism, where wheel-creatures are alive and semi-autonomous, with their own own way to acquire nutrients. Perhaps they would, er... suckle. Eeugh.

ctack 1y ago
In one of Philip Pullmans His Dark Material novels there is a race of creatures that have a symbiosis with a tree whose huge perfectly round nut can be grasped by their fore and hind limbs and they roll around that way.
- protocolture 1y ago
  One of the Animorphs spin offs had them too, it was meant to be specifically genetically engineered or something from distant memory.
ctack 1y ago
There are lizards or beetles that tumble down sand dunes. Maybe cartwheeling humans could lead to some adaptation where the whole body becomes the wheel.
- lupire 1y ago
  Wheels are not balls. Balls are common in nature. Wheels are not. The difference is that wheels need roads, which are not common nature and a large scale artificial objects.

teiferer 1y ago

> Wheels are [...] more effective than legs. Maybe in your living room. But step into a dense forest (which is what we are made for) and that statement will be far away from reality.