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Eric S. Raymond to the OSS community on codes of conduct: Refuse to have one
- yawpitch 1y ago[flagged]
- ggm 1y agoA man suffused by his own myth. I stopped reading when he said he codified the rules of open source. Eric, you don't get to define what a DECUS tape is. People who run projects get to decide if they have a CoC or not, Raymond isn't the boss of the bazaar or the cathedral.
- pwdisswordfishz 1y ago[flagged]
- rcakebread 1y agoThis guy: https://x.com/esrtweet/status/1892142993877954809 https://x.com/esrtweet/status/1892142993877954809
- pwdisswordfishz 1y agoSo why would I care what some racist Twitter rando thinks?
- Symbiote 1y agoHe wrote The Cathedral and the Bazaar in 1997, an essay about open source software development, and then later a book. He founded the Open Source Initiative (OSI). I wasn't aware of his political views, especially more recent statements he's made such as the linked tweet above/below. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar
- toyg 1y agoHe has always been somewhat on the right of the American political spectrum, mostly rooted there because (people thought) of his maximalist views over the right to own guns. When he (co)started OSI, he was one of the most business-friendly personalities in the FOSS ecosystem. Over the last 15 years he seems to have shifted further and further into the MAGA spectrum, increasingly exhibiting outright racist views. It might be age, it might be the evolution of the political debate over there, but the fact is that he's utterly unpresentable now, and I'm surprised anyone still listens to what he's basically just an old racist uncle yelling at everyone.
- keanb 1y agoUtterly unpresentable because some don’t like his politics? That’s bizarre.
- saubeidl 1y ago" If you kick out your Jews and replace them with Black women, that's a 25 to 30-point drop in average IQ. In an individual this would be severe brain damage." Some politics are not within the realm of what is considered acceptable.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- BrenBarn 1y agoIronically, "every bit of whatever authority I have" dwindles further and further every time he posts something like this.
- zeruch 1y agoESRs gravity peaked around 2004.
- saubeidl 1y agoYikes, I didn't realize Raymond was the kind of guy that posts about "low IQ black people" and sees "Marxists" everywhere. I don't like CoCs either, but ironically guys like him make me think they might be needed after all...
- _moof 1y agoHe's been this way for a long time, unfortunately. I remember reading a blog post of his in the '00s that was openly racist. Come to think of it, that may have been the last thing of his I read.
- Sophira 1y agoIt feels to me like a lot of people who don't like codes of conduct have similar views.
- Balinares 1y agoPeople of ESR's ilk are why you can't have a serious project without a CoC these days. It's just tragic. Else before too long you end up losing your black, trans, etc, contributors. Because somehow it's not "drama" when the ilk does racism/misogyny/transphobia but it is when they're being called out on it. Having a clear CoC helps keep the good actors safe while having clear red lines to keep the bad actors either in line, or out. But it's so sad that we got to that point at all...
- Symbiote 1y agoEric's suggestion for a CoC: > "If you are more annoying to work with than your contributions justify, you'll be ejected." is not unreasonable (whether written down or not) for an individual's hobby project, but for something run by a company or other organization I think more detail is required. The OSI code of conduct seems too general, perhaps open for different interpretations or potentially selective enforcement: https://opensource.org/codeofconduct https://opensource.org/codeofconduct The Linux one I prefer, since it's concise and clear, e.g. "sexualized language" and "harassment" are unacceptable: https://docs.kernel.org/process/code-of-conduct.html https://docs.kernel.org/process/code-of-conduct.html My own employer's code of conduct (we have open source projects, discussion forums etc) looks similar to the Linux one. I think it is enforced about once a year, and I think the reason has been either sexual harassment or repeated personal criticism of individuals' work.
- mytailorisrich 1y agoEverything can be selectively enforced and open to interpretation. Good questions are: What purpose does a CoC serve? How does it help? In most, if not all cases, they are not very helpful beyond, indeed, politics and drama because they turn into a weapon (on the assumption that this wasn't the aim all along). When a CoC is pushed by a company I think it's probably because companies need company policies for employees for HR and legal reasons. I am not convinced they could explain why that must extend beyond that, and really this is an ass-covering exercise in case things get too "raucous" in the project and produces bad PR.
- Symbiote 1y ago> What purpose does a CoC serve? How does it help? At work I think it has helped since we now have a clear procedure to follow if there's a problem. Having the Code of Conduct be a public document rather than only an internal one means there are fewer excuses available for not following it — for example someone can't claim they thought it would be OK to ask a developer for sex since we wrote down that that's not OK. It's also easier to explain in case the problem individual is employed by a paying customer.
- hitekker 1y agoI’ve enjoyed https://github.com/WiseLibs/better-sqlite3/blob/master/docs/conduct.md https://github.com/WiseLibs/better-sqlite3/blob/master/docs/... as a code of conduct. Simple, well-motivated, well-practiced (I think). Unlike more convoluted CoCs, it’s tightly scoped on work, not fun. Specific labor intended to produce contributions instead of enjoyable social experiences. I feel a lot more OSS should avoid fun. Fun doesn’t seem to scale, especially when it gets in the way of real work.
- znpy 1y ago> I feel a lot more OSS should avoid fun. This, so much. F/OSS os so much drama these days, and codes of conduct are the most effective tools to create more drama, usually.
- duskwuff 1y agoWhat concerns me about that CoC is that the last point ("Attention to personal traits...") sounds like it could easily be interpreted to disallow members of minority groups from self-identifying. For an example of how this can play out, see: https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/on-discourse-rules-about-politics/66986 https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/on-discourse-rules-about-poli...
- its-summertime 1y agoCode of Conducts are misaligned, in telling people what is allowed and what isn't. What is practical is a list of obligations the maintainers are willing to do for the community: Maintainers can only directly control themselves, after all. Only through their actions does anything happen, either merging code, or removing people from accessing the project. Knowing where the maintainers are going to draw the line is far more useful.
- rincebrain 1y agoI think my problem with codes of conduct is that, in my experience, they're usually just accountability sinks[1]. e.g. "all violations must be reported to the committee" => "we will forbid anyone taking action without the committee's prior approval, and insist that disclosing any reports to us is a violation of policy, then refuse to take any action on reports". So a thing that was supposed to explicitly communicate shared expectations and norms, instead becomes a way to minimize risk of bad PR for the project by silencing anyone who believed they were operating in good faith. [1] - https://aworkinglibrary.com/writing/accountability-sinks https://aworkinglibrary.com/writing/accountability-sinks
- unsungNovelty 1y agoCoC should facilitate free speech and thought without the worry of repurcussions. But in reality it is now a tool to say "I don't like you/your thoughts, so here comes the hammer". I have seen some of the flimsiest excuses used to ban someone. But the same reason doesn't warrant ban on the people the admins like. If you are actually right, then talk about in the open. Show restraint from name calling. Not everybody is out there with a hidden agenda. Lobste.rs is a great example of this. No shadow banning. Everything has a reason and accountability. Shoutout to people like JT from the BSD Now podcast as well. I am a fan of his moderation on the Telegram channel. Atleast as far as I have witnessed, I have seen some of the controversial topics going on and on but not banned for difference of opinions. A lot of de-escalation and patience. It would've been so easy for him to just do some Hammering. But that's not how it goes most of the time. We need more spaces like this.
- znpy 1y agoCompletely bogus argument. The core of the issue is that non-technical topics were brought into technical environments, creating heaps of drama, and then the concept of code of conduct was created to try and stir that drama. It’s basically addressing the symptoms rather than curing the disease: if you want to do foss, you have to accept you might be collaborating with somebody whose ideas are completely antithetical to yours. Any other approach is not free, and is not open.
- unsungNovelty 1y ago> Completely bogus argument. The core of the issue is that non-technical topics were brought into technical environments, creating heaps of drama, and then the concept of code of conduct was created to try and stir that drama. Yes. Looks like I didn't clarify my point in the main post. I don't think CoC is helping anyone. It is better to be without it. I was talking about how CoC's was being applied at present and how it was first introduced. If you've been around since at least early 2000s with flamewars, then you know why CoC came about. It was not a pretty sight. A lot of communities were like 4chan. Unfiltered and with people getting banned when nobody is backing down from an argument. I wasn't rallying for CoC to be made better. But I understand where it came from at the same time.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- burnt-resistor 1y agoCoC are redundant, weak, Cider House rules with the social contract. It's perfunctory, wishful thinking similar to digital government petitions meant to waste people's time with pseudo-participation.
- sph 1y agoCode of conducts are a waste of time. Trolls won’t read it, well-behaved people don’t need to be told how to behave well. It’s not like there are CoCs out there that grant you specific rights others don’t: there is no CoC that says, for example, it is fine to harass people or be a racist idiot. So they’re all a variation of: Rule 1: don’t be a **** Rule 2: basically rule 1 but with more words Then why do you need a code of conduct at this point. Not being a **** to other people is an unspoken rule that applies everywhere in life, online and offline. CoCs simply exist because there is a large contingent of people that really do love making and enforcing rules.
- mariusor 1y agoThe way I understand the necessity for CoCs is not to tell people how to behave, but to have a clear path to understanding why some people get removed or denied contributing to a project. It's easier to say "your behaviour contravenes our CoC" than "I don't like the way you're behaving".
- sph 1y agoI guess then it’s a cultural thing about avoiding confrontation, because to me there is nothing wrong to confront someone when they’re being a dick. No need to point at some rules, it’s self-evident and the project maintainers should be able to boot people that cannot behave.
- mariusor 1y agoI didn't mean it in that way, but people think having a codified set of rules makes it look less arbitrary and less of an abuse of privilege when they decide to boot someone. I'm in your camp to be honest, as a maintainer I feel like I need no other justification than "I don't like you" for refusing someone access to my project.
- tempodox 1y ago> But we should be ruthless and merciless towards people who try to turn "Be kind!" into a weapon. Indulging them never ends well. Indeed, this is how cancel culture started (not just in OSS), and look where it got us. "If you are more annoying to work with than your contributions justify, you'll be ejected." should be all that is required, if it really needs to be said at all.