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Advice fror people trying to get into text adventures: do not start with infocom games. Start with something like Glowgrass, Violet, The Dreamhold, Plundered He

by kqr 1y ago

Advice fror people trying to get into text adventures: do not start with infocom games. Start with something like Glowgrass, Violet, The Dreamhold, Plundered Hearts*, or Lost Pig. They'pe friendlier to the player. I get that the interface is a little fiddly at first, but it is highly conventional. Once you have spent a few minutes learning it, you unlock all other text adventures, of which there are many amazing ones. I see many suggestions for using LLMs to improve the experience. I have tried that myself[2] and played others' attempts[3], and LLMs' world modeling abilities are currently insufficient for that[4]. They invent details that don't exist, they assume things have effects they don't, etc. They add more frustration than they remove. Text adventures are often puzzle-paced, meaning they tell their story in drips separated by puzzles. These puzzles can be difficult. Best is to play with a friend -- you might get ideas from each other. If you have no interested friend, don't feel shame over looking at hints, or outright looking the solution up. But do let the puzzle simmer for a day first to make sure you've tried everything you can think of. [1]: An Infocom game but rather different from the others. [2]: https://entropicthoughts.com/evaluating-llms-playing-text-adventures https://entropicthoughts.com/evaluating-llms-playing-text-ad... [3]: https://ifdb.org/viewgame?id=6nn0ihhejq2hrvh2&review=86904 https://ifdb.org/viewgame?id=6nn0ihhejq2hrvh2&review=86904 [4]: More systematic paper on arXiv I've lost the link to but will post when I find it.

lyu07282 1y ago
> do not start with infocom games Generally yes, however Hitchhiker is the one huge exception to that. Its very accessible, well written and the BBC released a version for the web: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1g84m0sXpnNCv84GpN2PLZG/the-game-30th-anniversary-edition https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1g84m0sXpnNCv84GpN...
- kqr 1y ago
  This must be a different version than the original, then. The original was exceedingly cruel, as Douglas Adams wanted to play practical jokes riffing on genre conventions.
  - lyu07282 1y ago
    I always liked it for the same reason you disliked it, but having read the book and the added room visuals in the BBC version might make it easier too. Liking Douglas Adams humor is also a big factor I imagine, I thought it was very funny.
    - andrepd 1y ago
      It is very funny! That's why I felt no shame in looking up hints/walkthrough: I'm there for the writing and the exploration, not the puzzle which requires you to pick up a random item 1h before it's apparent you need it... :p
  - jfultz 1y ago
    I remembered a comic panel that I'd seen in the New Zork Times back in the day, and I just found it...page 7 of this: https://infodoc.plover.net/nzt/NZT4.4.pdf https://infodoc.plover.net/nzt/NZT4.4.pdf The comic pokes fun at the ridiculously cruel babelfish puzzle. Which, I'm proud to say, I solved back in the day without assistance, after a full day's worth of effort, and requiring at one point to completely restart the game because of an apparently useless item I didn't pick up at the very beginning of the game (if you've solved it, you'll know the item I'm referring to). But...while that was a nice achievement, I still got stuck later in the game, trying to fix the Nutrimatic.
    - qmr 1y ago
      I solved it as well. ... but I'm pretty sure my game copy had "Invisiclues" or whatever installed. I'm curious why some of the games in the 90s re-releases had this and some did not.
      - ghaff 1y ago
        I'm not aware of Invisiclues ever having been "installed." I'm only familiar with them as booklets with "invisible" ink. And, at least initially, they were created at least quasi-independently of Infocom by someone who later joined Infocom.
dfabulich 1y ago
I help run the Interactive Fiction Database at https://ifdb.org https://ifdb.org. You really can't go wrong browsing our list of the best games of all time. https://ifdb.org/search?browse https://ifdb.org/search?browse All of the top-rated games have walkthroughs or other hints for when you get stuck. My top advice for new players: use the hints.
- kqr 1y ago
  This is a good point! I have personally decided to save some of the all-time greatest games until I am better at text adventures and can enjoy them with fewer hints.
- ghaff 1y ago
  I started playing Infocom games before there were online hints or even Invisiclues. I knew one of the authors quite well and resorted to (literally) calling him from time to time :-)
- copx 1y ago
  >You really can't go wrong browsing our list of the best games of all time. https://ifdb.org/search?browse https://ifdb.org/search?browse You can, because those games are the best according to the preferences of interactive fiction connaisseurs, and the preferences of connaisseurs never match those of the masses. E.g. beer connaisseurs love IPAs, while most people find them way too bitter.
  - pessimizer 1y ago
    Beer connoisseurs don't love IPAs. Modern IPAs are the most like Budweiser rice beers that you can get in the fancy beer world, so that's what people who aspire to look like connoisseurs prefer. They prefer them to be very bitter, and/or flavored with exotic fruits, because they can't judge quality and rely on distinctness.
  - dfabulich 1y ago
    I just meant that absolutely none of those games suck.
Slothrop99 1y ago
IMO everyone should at least try Zork I. It was the first and the greatest, there's plenty of places to go, and much of it is pretty easy. Plus all these games constantly reference it in oblique ways. You should at least try your hand at Zork first. > do not start with infocom games Yeah, the filfre.net historian described how most Infocom games sold in tiny numbers to their fanbase. They are text adventures for the hard-core text-adventure enthusiast. (And that includes Zork II and III.) > Plundered Hearts > Hitchhikers Guide Both these seemed super-linear. If you can't solve a puzzle, you are stuck and you die. Not recommended for newbies imo. (Plundered Hearts is a 'romance novel' rather than the usual d&d shit.)
- miohtama 1y ago
  It is the first, but Zork as a game and quality of entertainment is pretty bad. If you do not have infinite time your time might be spent better elsewhere.
  - jhbadger 1y ago
    Courses for horses, I guess. I find spending the time to solve a text adventure (ideally without hints) to be more enjoyable than most forms of gaming, but then I like crossword puzzles too.
- qmr 1y ago
  "put all into thing" "I got the Babel Fish T shirt" How did the infamous Babel fish puzzle originate? The basic idea was by Douglas, and I added some refinements (like the Upper-Half-Of-The-Room Cleaning Robot). More interesting is how close the puzzle came to being removed from the game; most of Infocom’s testing group thought it was too hard. I was going into a meeting with them just as Douglas was leaving for the airport at the end of his final trip to Infocom, and I asked him, “What should I tell them about the Babel fish puzzle?” He said, “What should you tell them? Tell them to fuck off!” So the puzzle stayed… and its very hardness became a cult thing. Infocom even sold T-shirts that said “I got the Babel fish.” -- Steve Meretzky
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deleted 1y ago
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js8 1y ago
How good are LLMs at actually playing the adventure games? Can they win?
- kqr 1y ago
  Not really, no. They get stuck extremely easily. They can last longer with hand-holding but they still get stuck. Humans also get stuck, to be fair, but tend to be more inventive and methodical in trying to get unstuck, and more intelligent in what to pay attention to. LLMs play like a three year old with advanced vocabulary and infinite patience. LLMs also by nature don't learn from their experiences. Even within the same context window their past mistakes only increase the propensity of generating similar mistakes.
lou1306 1y ago
I don't know. Trinity might be a good starting point. Zork on the other hand is often suggested but I find it so annoying, if you don't solve a certain quest early you're automatically locked out of victory.

by kqr 1y ago

lyu07282 1y ago

> do not start with infocom games Generally yes, however Hitchhiker is the one huge exception to that. Its very accessible, well written and the BBC released a version for the web: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1g84m0sXpnNCv84GpN2PLZG/the-game-30th-anniversary-edition https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1g84m0sXpnNCv84GpN...

kqr 1y ago
This must be a different version than the original, then. The original was exceedingly cruel, as Douglas Adams wanted to play practical jokes riffing on genre conventions.
- lyu07282 1y ago
  I always liked it for the same reason you disliked it, but having read the book and the added room visuals in the BBC version might make it easier too. Liking Douglas Adams humor is also a big factor I imagine, I thought it was very funny.
  - andrepd 1y ago
    It is very funny! That's why I felt no shame in looking up hints/walkthrough: I'm there for the writing and the exploration, not the puzzle which requires you to pick up a random item 1h before it's apparent you need it... :p
- jfultz 1y ago
  I remembered a comic panel that I'd seen in the New Zork Times back in the day, and I just found it...page 7 of this: https://infodoc.plover.net/nzt/NZT4.4.pdf https://infodoc.plover.net/nzt/NZT4.4.pdf The comic pokes fun at the ridiculously cruel babelfish puzzle. Which, I'm proud to say, I solved back in the day without assistance, after a full day's worth of effort, and requiring at one point to completely restart the game because of an apparently useless item I didn't pick up at the very beginning of the game (if you've solved it, you'll know the item I'm referring to). But...while that was a nice achievement, I still got stuck later in the game, trying to fix the Nutrimatic.
  - qmr 1y ago
    I solved it as well. ... but I'm pretty sure my game copy had "Invisiclues" or whatever installed. I'm curious why some of the games in the 90s re-releases had this and some did not.
    - ghaff 1y ago
      I'm not aware of Invisiclues ever having been "installed." I'm only familiar with them as booklets with "invisible" ink. And, at least initially, they were created at least quasi-independently of Infocom by someone who later joined Infocom.

dfabulich 1y ago

I help run the Interactive Fiction Database at https://ifdb.org https://ifdb.org. You really can't go wrong browsing our list of the best games of all time. https://ifdb.org/search?browse https://ifdb.org/search?browse All of the top-rated games have walkthroughs or other hints for when you get stuck. My top advice for new players: use the hints.

kqr 1y ago
This is a good point! I have personally decided to save some of the all-time greatest games until I am better at text adventures and can enjoy them with fewer hints.
ghaff 1y ago
I started playing Infocom games before there were online hints or even Invisiclues. I knew one of the authors quite well and resorted to (literally) calling him from time to time :-)
copx 1y ago
>You really can't go wrong browsing our list of the best games of all time. https://ifdb.org/search?browse https://ifdb.org/search?browse You can, because those games are the best according to the preferences of interactive fiction connaisseurs, and the preferences of connaisseurs never match those of the masses. E.g. beer connaisseurs love IPAs, while most people find them way too bitter.
- pessimizer 1y ago
  Beer connoisseurs don't love IPAs. Modern IPAs are the most like Budweiser rice beers that you can get in the fancy beer world, so that's what people who aspire to look like connoisseurs prefer. They prefer them to be very bitter, and/or flavored with exotic fruits, because they can't judge quality and rely on distinctness.
- dfabulich 1y ago
  I just meant that absolutely none of those games suck.

Slothrop99 1y ago

IMO everyone should at least try Zork I. It was the first and the greatest, there's plenty of places to go, and much of it is pretty easy. Plus all these games constantly reference it in oblique ways. You should at least try your hand at Zork first. > do not start with infocom games Yeah, the filfre.net historian described how most Infocom games sold in tiny numbers to their fanbase. They are text adventures for the hard-core text-adventure enthusiast. (And that includes Zork II and III.) > Plundered Hearts > Hitchhikers Guide Both these seemed super-linear. If you can't solve a puzzle, you are stuck and you die. Not recommended for newbies imo. (Plundered Hearts is a 'romance novel' rather than the usual d&d shit.)

miohtama 1y ago
It is the first, but Zork as a game and quality of entertainment is pretty bad. If you do not have infinite time your time might be spent better elsewhere.
- jhbadger 1y ago
  Courses for horses, I guess. I find spending the time to solve a text adventure (ideally without hints) to be more enjoyable than most forms of gaming, but then I like crossword puzzles too.
qmr 1y ago
"put all into thing" "I got the Babel Fish T shirt" How did the infamous Babel fish puzzle originate? The basic idea was by Douglas, and I added some refinements (like the Upper-Half-Of-The-Room Cleaning Robot). More interesting is how close the puzzle came to being removed from the game; most of Infocom’s testing group thought it was too hard. I was going into a meeting with them just as Douglas was leaving for the airport at the end of his final trip to Infocom, and I asked him, “What should I tell them about the Babel fish puzzle?” He said, “What should you tell them? Tell them to fuck off!” So the puzzle stayed… and its very hardness became a cult thing. Infocom even sold T-shirts that said “I got the Babel fish.” -- Steve Meretzky
- 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

js8 1y ago

How good are LLMs at actually playing the adventure games? Can they win?

kqr 1y ago
Not really, no. They get stuck extremely easily. They can last longer with hand-holding but they still get stuck. Humans also get stuck, to be fair, but tend to be more inventive and methodical in trying to get unstuck, and more intelligent in what to pay attention to. LLMs play like a three year old with advanced vocabulary and infinite patience. LLMs also by nature don't learn from their experiences. Even within the same context window their past mistakes only increase the propensity of generating similar mistakes.

lou1306 1y ago

I don't know. Trinity might be a good starting point. Zork on the other hand is often suggested but I find it so annoying, if you don't solve a certain quest early you're automatically locked out of victory.