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Major difference between visiting a place and emigrating there. How many cultures actually learn another language just to go on their annual vacation? You seem

Major difference between visiting a place and emigrating there. How many cultures actually learn another language just to go on their annual vacation? You seem to be arguing simultaneously that the Brits are worse than average when it comes to adapting to local norms as tourists, while also suggesting that the people moving to Britain permanently shouldn't have to? There's nothing wrong with a culture adapting over time without losing their identity, like your example of Brits deciding to add the kebab. But a small country can't preserve their identity when they are overloaded by so many immigrants coming in at once who FORCE their ways on their new home. Think of it as Push vs Pull, there's a difference. Every country having a unique culture makes the world more interesting. Imagine how boring it would be if you saved up for a trip to Japan/Kenya/Chile/etc, only to find that almost everyone there was a white English-speaking American living the exact same lifestyle you have at home? Leftists would in that case be empathetic toward the remaining indigenous minority who feel their historic way of life was killed off against their will. Why should it be any different if you swap the country and nationalities in this example to what is happening in the UK? I am an immigrant myself, and a fairly liberal one at that. But I made the effort to come to my new home legally and assimilate to the best of my ability. I'm not sure why I should hold others to a lower standard.

hnlmorg 1y ago
> You seem to be arguing simultaneously that the Brits are worse than average when it comes to adapting to local norms as tourists, while also suggesting that the people moving to Britain permanently shouldn't have to? No. I’m arguing that people who say “people change their personalities to suit mine” are hypocrites. > But a small country can't preserve their identity when they are overloaded by so many immigrants coming in at once who FORCE their ways on their new home. Think of it as Push vs Pull, there's a difference. Citation required — for literally every part of that sentence. > Every country having a unique culture makes the world more interesting. Exactly my point as well. > Leftists would in that case be empathetic toward the remaining indigenous minority who feel their historic way of life was killed off against their will. Why should it be any different if you swap the country and nationalities in this example to what is happening in the UK? If you think a fraction of a percentage of people coming to the UK is suddenly going to change the identity of the entire country then you need to get out and explore more of the UK yourself. > I am an immigrant myself, and a fairly liberal one at that. But I made the effort to come to my new home legally and assimilate to the best of my ability. I'm not sure why I should hold others to a lower standard. The problem isn’t the suggestion. The problem is the entitlement. I do think it’s courteous for people to make an effort to integrate. But it should also be their decision, not ours. And that’s the crux of the problem. Most of the time, the complains about immigration are unfounded scapegoating of people who are different. It’s got fuck all to do with facts. It’s just people who the government have failed, or people who feel entitled, being fearful of other people who are different. It’s literally just an unchecked primal instinct. And we need to grow past that as a species.
- 9x39 1y ago
  >I do think it’s courteous for people to make an effort to integrate. But it should also be their decision, not ours. If I choose not to integrate, and to instead practice particularly illiberal approaches to women, for example, is that still my decision? If my culture uses rape and acid to control women, may I continue? I'm picking on a particularly onerous difference between Western and MENA peoples that's been a flashpoint in the UK, from what I can see. If immigration was purely unfounded scapegoating, and we all could simply talk about our heritage and share new foods in these borderless economic zones that used to be countries, why would there be articles like these popping up: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/aug/05/disputed-or-debunked-claims-about-migration-and-crime-uk https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/aug/05/disputed-or-... https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyvnnj301l3o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyvnnj301l3o Another debate probably reduced to a single bit of information between participants. Class based analyses on immigration are probably more telling, but there doesn't seem to be much available.
  - hnlmorg 1y ago
    > If I choose not to integrate, and to instead practice particularly illiberal approaches to women, for example, is that still my decision? If my culture uses rape and acid to control women, may I continue? You’re now conflating culture with crime. And are you honestly suggesting that other cultures have literally nothing to offer asides violent sexual offences?! Ridiculous. > If immigration was purely unfounded scapegoating, and we all could simply talk about our heritage and share new foods in these borderless economic zones that used to be countries, why would there be articles like these popping up The first article is debunking headline claims about immigration. Ostensibly supporting my claims. The second article is just a commentary of the government’s plans to deport. Neither of them defend your position.
- randerson 1y ago
  > No. I’m arguing that people who say “people change their personalities to suit mine” are hypocrites. Assimilating doesn't mean changing one's personality. I'm still the same person I was before I came to the USA, but I respect that some things are customary and others are considered offensive. I know I'm expected to tip for services that in other countries would be considered insulting. Yet if enough immigrants refused to tip, it would become a stereotype that would create negative sentiment towards said immigrants because workers rely on that income. > If you think a fraction of a percentage of people coming to the UK is suddenly going to change the identity of the entire country then you need to get out and explore more of the UK yourself. I roadtripped across the UK earlier this year actually, spending time in 2 major cities and 4 small towns. The demographic shift over the last decade is immediately noticeable. It is multiple orders of magnitude more than you're making it out to be. > I do think it’s courteous for people to make an effort to integrate. But it should also be their decision, not ours. That's a matter of opinion, and perhaps not up to either you or me to decide whether it is right, but up to the % of citizens who will vote against immigration at the next election. Unchecked immigration is the top reason that western populations are shifting rightward. And this trend has evidently scared the Labour Party enough that they're finally preteneding to do something about it. But let's say it is up to an immigrant to decide whether to integrate. What if their values are incompatible with the country's? If you move to the UK and take great offense over how people dress or their type of humor or their freedom of religion or their pub culture or whatever, why did you even move there? And if you then expect this entire sovereign nation (who is already doing you a favor by allowing you in) to change their ways to accommodate your beliefs, that is a hell of a lot more entitled than the other way around (the country expecting an individual to integrate as part of the terms of being let in).

hnlmorg 1y ago

> You seem to be arguing simultaneously that the Brits are worse than average when it comes to adapting to local norms as tourists, while also suggesting that the people moving to Britain permanently shouldn't have to? No. I’m arguing that people who say “people change their personalities to suit mine” are hypocrites. > But a small country can't preserve their identity when they are overloaded by so many immigrants coming in at once who FORCE their ways on their new home. Think of it as Push vs Pull, there's a difference. Citation required — for literally every part of that sentence. > Every country having a unique culture makes the world more interesting. Exactly my point as well. > Leftists would in that case be empathetic toward the remaining indigenous minority who feel their historic way of life was killed off against their will. Why should it be any different if you swap the country and nationalities in this example to what is happening in the UK? If you think a fraction of a percentage of people coming to the UK is suddenly going to change the identity of the entire country then you need to get out and explore more of the UK yourself. > I am an immigrant myself, and a fairly liberal one at that. But I made the effort to come to my new home legally and assimilate to the best of my ability. I'm not sure why I should hold others to a lower standard. The problem isn’t the suggestion. The problem is the entitlement. I do think it’s courteous for people to make an effort to integrate. But it should also be their decision, not ours. And that’s the crux of the problem. Most of the time, the complains about immigration are unfounded scapegoating of people who are different. It’s got fuck all to do with facts. It’s just people who the government have failed, or people who feel entitled, being fearful of other people who are different. It’s literally just an unchecked primal instinct. And we need to grow past that as a species.

9x39 1y ago
>I do think it’s courteous for people to make an effort to integrate. But it should also be their decision, not ours. If I choose not to integrate, and to instead practice particularly illiberal approaches to women, for example, is that still my decision? If my culture uses rape and acid to control women, may I continue? I'm picking on a particularly onerous difference between Western and MENA peoples that's been a flashpoint in the UK, from what I can see. If immigration was purely unfounded scapegoating, and we all could simply talk about our heritage and share new foods in these borderless economic zones that used to be countries, why would there be articles like these popping up: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/aug/05/disputed-or-debunked-claims-about-migration-and-crime-uk https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/aug/05/disputed-or-... https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyvnnj301l3o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyvnnj301l3o Another debate probably reduced to a single bit of information between participants. Class based analyses on immigration are probably more telling, but there doesn't seem to be much available.
- hnlmorg 1y ago
  > If I choose not to integrate, and to instead practice particularly illiberal approaches to women, for example, is that still my decision? If my culture uses rape and acid to control women, may I continue? You’re now conflating culture with crime. And are you honestly suggesting that other cultures have literally nothing to offer asides violent sexual offences?! Ridiculous. > If immigration was purely unfounded scapegoating, and we all could simply talk about our heritage and share new foods in these borderless economic zones that used to be countries, why would there be articles like these popping up The first article is debunking headline claims about immigration. Ostensibly supporting my claims. The second article is just a commentary of the government’s plans to deport. Neither of them defend your position.
randerson 1y ago
> No. I’m arguing that people who say “people change their personalities to suit mine” are hypocrites. Assimilating doesn't mean changing one's personality. I'm still the same person I was before I came to the USA, but I respect that some things are customary and others are considered offensive. I know I'm expected to tip for services that in other countries would be considered insulting. Yet if enough immigrants refused to tip, it would become a stereotype that would create negative sentiment towards said immigrants because workers rely on that income. > If you think a fraction of a percentage of people coming to the UK is suddenly going to change the identity of the entire country then you need to get out and explore more of the UK yourself. I roadtripped across the UK earlier this year actually, spending time in 2 major cities and 4 small towns. The demographic shift over the last decade is immediately noticeable. It is multiple orders of magnitude more than you're making it out to be. > I do think it’s courteous for people to make an effort to integrate. But it should also be their decision, not ours. That's a matter of opinion, and perhaps not up to either you or me to decide whether it is right, but up to the % of citizens who will vote against immigration at the next election. Unchecked immigration is the top reason that western populations are shifting rightward. And this trend has evidently scared the Labour Party enough that they're finally preteneding to do something about it. But let's say it is up to an immigrant to decide whether to integrate. What if their values are incompatible with the country's? If you move to the UK and take great offense over how people dress or their type of humor or their freedom of religion or their pub culture or whatever, why did you even move there? And if you then expect this entire sovereign nation (who is already doing you a favor by allowing you in) to change their ways to accommodate your beliefs, that is a hell of a lot more entitled than the other way around (the country expecting an individual to integrate as part of the terms of being let in).