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It's fascinating how much of this has to be devoted to "You are probably not seeing a laser. You are probably not being harassed by an organized group" People

It's fascinating how much of this has to be devoted to "You are probably not seeing a laser. You are probably not being harassed by an organized group" People who have delusions or people deep into their conspiracy theories have an insane level of insistence. They will refuse to accept "That's just not how that works" as an answer. It's scary.

jandrese 1y ago
There are diagnoseable mental illnesses that cause people to believe they are being targeted by sinister forces. They can't believe because their brain is malfunctioning.
- ryandrake 1y ago
  Reddit's r/gangstalking is where they meet. Yet another group that might benefit from therapy or mental help.
  - lawlessone 1y ago
    The kind of reinforcement they give each other is the same kind some people are now getting from chatbots instead.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    Wait, that isn’t a parody sub?
    - culi 1y ago
      Nope. The phenomenon is more widespread than people realize. Here's an Aeon piece worth reading about it https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-psychiatric-narrative-hinders-those-who-hear-voices https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-psychiatric-narrative-hinders...
    - XorNot 1y ago
      Parody subreddits have a bad habit of becoming serious. I think the big surprise of the internet and subsequently the SCP wiki's focus on cognitohazards and "killer memes" is that the phenomenon in it's own way is an extreme version of a real danger - as a species we are really not well equipped for the information environment we've built, and it's prudent to tread very cautiously.
- vintermann 1y ago
  I think what they feel is that they've had some experience, and they have an unshakeable feeling that it's deeply significant. As Philip K. Dick said, of his own "laser pointer" incident: "If you were me, and had this happen to you, I'm sure you wouldn't be able to leave it alone." Remember, that even for us healthy people, there's ultimately no objective answer to what's important or not. There may be more or less objective conditional answers (e.g. if it's important that I don't starve to death tomorrow, it's important that I eat), but those already assumes something is important. It has to bottom out in something that's important for its own sake, something whose importance can't be justified from something else's importance. I think the "gangstalking" people have had experiences that their mind does not allow them to dismiss. They may be capable of accepting different explanations for why the experience mattered - but they can't accept that it isn't important, because it's somehow a root important thing for them. In that very same Philip K. Dick essay, he more or less apologized for this, and listed up various different explanations that he'd tried. But he was lucky enough that his "ultimate importance" experience was basically pleasant. The genuinely paranoid people are not so lucky.
  - fullStackOasis 1y ago
    For those who are curious, this seems to be a link to the Philip K. Dick essay referenced in your comment: https://philipdick.com/mirror/essays/How_to_Build_a_Universe.pdf https://philipdick.com/mirror/essays/How_to_Build_a_Universe... "How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later" (1978). It holds some interesting parallels to the current times.
  - peddling-brink 1y ago
    It's more than just importance though. I had a friend experience a psychotic episode and suffer from delusions. It was more than just, "this is really happening to me". Any suggestions that we offered that they weren't able to refute became part of the delusion. "You're right, it's not the police breaking into my house, it must be the FBI!"
armada651 1y ago
The problem with such delusions is that people desperately need a physical explanation. Because the alternative is that they are seeing things that are not real, which is an even scarier thought than some organized group pointing lasers at you.
- kragen 1y ago
  Nothing anyone sees is real. People aren't capable of observing reality directly. At best, their perceptions give them some information about reality, but they are never reality itself.
munificent 1y ago
> They will refuse to accept "That's just not how that works" as an answer. For many people with mental illness, it's not a "refusal". That implies agency and deliberate choice from a properly functioning mind. When it's the mind itself that is malfunctioning, those kinds of verbs don't really work. The very definition of "delusion" is a thing you are compelled to believe even in the absence of evidence. If you are able to stop believing it, if you are able to not refuse to change your belief, then it's not a delusion in the first place. Further, some people suffering in this way have anosognosia, which means not only are they delusion, but their mind is also incapable of perceiving its own malfunction.
goopypoop 1y ago
"That's just not how that works" isn't an answer; it's a dismissal. Who's convinced by "lol no ur stupid"?
OkayPhysicist 1y ago
Every biohacking community ends up with a page like this talking about implants. "Yes, we implant ourselves with little devices that interact with electromagnetic radiation. No, you probably didn't have such a device implanted in you without your knowledge. If you did, it wouldn't be much use to your adversaries. Please seek psychiatric help".
- kragen 1y ago
  This sounds interesting; got some links? Not to the psychiatric help pages, I mean, the pages about how they make their implants.
tencentshill 1y ago
The run-on sentence style paranoid people type is getting a lot more common online.
culi 1y ago
Sounds like the writings of a "targeted individual". Or "gangstalking". It's a more common phenomenon than people realize. There's even a subreddit community of individuals experiencing this https://old.reddit.com/r/Gangstalking/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Gangstalking/ Here's a fascinating Aeon piece on the phenomenon https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-psychiatric-narrative-hinders-those-who-hear-voices https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-psychiatric-narrative-hinders...
jlarocco 1y ago
Honestly, "That's just not how that works" isn't a very convincing argument. If you can't explain why it doesn't work that way, there's no reason anybody should believe you.
ascorbic 1y ago
It's a very carefully-worded page from somebody who has clearly had to deal with a large number of people suffering from paranoid delusions.
dotancohen 1y ago
It very much reminds me of discussions of people finding or seeing meteors falling. The consensus is, if you see the rock falling, then it is not a meteor. Both the lasers and the meteors have in common the fact that there are far more false negatives than true positives.

jandrese 1y ago

There are diagnoseable mental illnesses that cause people to believe they are being targeted by sinister forces. They can't believe because their brain is malfunctioning.

ryandrake 1y ago
Reddit's r/gangstalking is where they meet. Yet another group that might benefit from therapy or mental help.
- lawlessone 1y ago
  The kind of reinforcement they give each other is the same kind some people are now getting from chatbots instead.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  Wait, that isn’t a parody sub?
  - culi 1y ago
    Nope. The phenomenon is more widespread than people realize. Here's an Aeon piece worth reading about it https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-psychiatric-narrative-hinders-those-who-hear-voices https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-psychiatric-narrative-hinders...
  - XorNot 1y ago
    Parody subreddits have a bad habit of becoming serious. I think the big surprise of the internet and subsequently the SCP wiki's focus on cognitohazards and "killer memes" is that the phenomenon in it's own way is an extreme version of a real danger - as a species we are really not well equipped for the information environment we've built, and it's prudent to tread very cautiously.
vintermann 1y ago
I think what they feel is that they've had some experience, and they have an unshakeable feeling that it's deeply significant. As Philip K. Dick said, of his own "laser pointer" incident: "If you were me, and had this happen to you, I'm sure you wouldn't be able to leave it alone." Remember, that even for us healthy people, there's ultimately no objective answer to what's important or not. There may be more or less objective conditional answers (e.g. if it's important that I don't starve to death tomorrow, it's important that I eat), but those already assumes something is important. It has to bottom out in something that's important for its own sake, something whose importance can't be justified from something else's importance. I think the "gangstalking" people have had experiences that their mind does not allow them to dismiss. They may be capable of accepting different explanations for why the experience mattered - but they can't accept that it isn't important, because it's somehow a root important thing for them. In that very same Philip K. Dick essay, he more or less apologized for this, and listed up various different explanations that he'd tried. But he was lucky enough that his "ultimate importance" experience was basically pleasant. The genuinely paranoid people are not so lucky.
- fullStackOasis 1y ago
  For those who are curious, this seems to be a link to the Philip K. Dick essay referenced in your comment: https://philipdick.com/mirror/essays/How_to_Build_a_Universe.pdf https://philipdick.com/mirror/essays/How_to_Build_a_Universe... "How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later" (1978). It holds some interesting parallels to the current times.
- peddling-brink 1y ago
  It's more than just importance though. I had a friend experience a psychotic episode and suffer from delusions. It was more than just, "this is really happening to me". Any suggestions that we offered that they weren't able to refute became part of the delusion. "You're right, it's not the police breaking into my house, it must be the FBI!"

armada651 1y ago

The problem with such delusions is that people desperately need a physical explanation. Because the alternative is that they are seeing things that are not real, which is an even scarier thought than some organized group pointing lasers at you.

kragen 1y ago
Nothing anyone sees is real. People aren't capable of observing reality directly. At best, their perceptions give them some information about reality, but they are never reality itself.

munificent 1y ago

> They will refuse to accept "That's just not how that works" as an answer. For many people with mental illness, it's not a "refusal". That implies agency and deliberate choice from a properly functioning mind. When it's the mind itself that is malfunctioning, those kinds of verbs don't really work. The very definition of "delusion" is a thing you are compelled to believe even in the absence of evidence. If you are able to stop believing it, if you are able to not refuse to change your belief, then it's not a delusion in the first place. Further, some people suffering in this way have anosognosia, which means not only are they delusion, but their mind is also incapable of perceiving its own malfunction.

goopypoop 1y ago

"That's just not how that works" isn't an answer; it's a dismissal. Who's convinced by "lol no ur stupid"?

OkayPhysicist 1y ago

Every biohacking community ends up with a page like this talking about implants. "Yes, we implant ourselves with little devices that interact with electromagnetic radiation. No, you probably didn't have such a device implanted in you without your knowledge. If you did, it wouldn't be much use to your adversaries. Please seek psychiatric help".

kragen 1y ago
This sounds interesting; got some links? Not to the psychiatric help pages, I mean, the pages about how they make their implants.

tencentshill 1y ago

The run-on sentence style paranoid people type is getting a lot more common online.

culi 1y ago

Sounds like the writings of a "targeted individual". Or "gangstalking". It's a more common phenomenon than people realize. There's even a subreddit community of individuals experiencing this https://old.reddit.com/r/Gangstalking/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Gangstalking/ Here's a fascinating Aeon piece on the phenomenon https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-psychiatric-narrative-hinders-those-who-hear-voices https://aeon.co/essays/how-the-psychiatric-narrative-hinders...

jlarocco 1y ago

Honestly, "That's just not how that works" isn't a very convincing argument. If you can't explain why it doesn't work that way, there's no reason anybody should believe you.

ascorbic 1y ago

It's a very carefully-worded page from somebody who has clearly had to deal with a large number of people suffering from paranoid delusions.

dotancohen 1y ago

It very much reminds me of discussions of people finding or seeing meteors falling. The consensus is, if you see the rock falling, then it is not a meteor. Both the lasers and the meteors have in common the fact that there are far more false negatives than true positives.