4 ms·

This is a plan so we shall see what happens... This is widely unpopular because the idea of ID cards is unpopular in general in the UK and the people also clea

This is a plan so we shall see what happens... This is widely unpopular because the idea of ID cards is unpopular in general in the UK and the people also clearly understand that the argument that this would combat illegal immigration is total rubbish. Even the comments on The Guardian's website are overwhelmingly negative, which should really tell the government something. The proposal is also drastic because it would be de facto mandatory for all residents. It's hilarious and pathetic to see the government argue that it wouldn't be mandatory, just only needed to get a job (which probably means also mandatory to rent and to study)... An unpopular government trying to out-do itself.

celticninja 1y ago
[flagged]
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  > What it will combat is illegal immigrants ability to work. No. That's a rubbish claim by the government. Employers must already check right to work and it is straightforward. Penalties are unlimited fines and jail, with penalties of 40k+ dished out on the first offence.
  - celticninja 1y ago
    It is easily gamed and it requires providing documents, usually these are photos or reproductions of passports which are provided digitally and can be easily altered. And employers don't have the skill or ability to detect them, or often the will to investigate.. by having copies of the documents they can show they did what was required and claim to have been misled and they are the victims, so no prosecution or fines.
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      That's not how it works and it is not easily gamed. You must provide your original passport, not a copy. And if you are a foreigner you must also provide a "share code" that allows the employer to go to the Home Office's website and check you details, including picture, and entitlement to live/work/study in the country. Again, if some employers are unscrupulous, or just plain idiots, ID cards won't change that. > by having copies of the documents they can show they did what was required and claim to have been misled and they are the victims, so no prosecution or fines. On the contrary, this means 40k fine.
  - gadders 1y ago
    Most of the work done by illegal immigrants is for things like Deliveroo/Uber Eats, where an account is shared: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj615p5y5kko https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj615p5y5kko
    - pjc50 1y ago
      So they can just share a digital ID as well, right?
    - whywhywhywhy 1y ago
      Yeah they can just share the same Digital ID so the point is none of this is actually about these people, it's about something else.
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      Well, exactly. Deliveroo checks the right to work of the account owner and then that person shares it with others cash in hand. QED.
- GJim 1y ago
  > What it will combat is illegal immigrants ability to work Utter rubbish. Do you seriously think those already paying cash-in-hand for delivery drivers, window cleaners, fruit pickers etc will give a toss about someone's lack of an ID card?
  - celticninja 1y ago
    No but it makes prosecution easier..right now you can provide a copy of a document, which can be digitally altered, but the employer can say 'i accepted it in good faith' and they have done their due diligence. Having scanned a digital ID and for example that does not match the worker you have employed makes it harder to claim you did due diligence
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      No, you can't provide just a copy of of a document. This is not a valid check and only providing only a document without share code only works if you are citizen. "Ask to see the applicant’s original documents. You can no longer accept biometric residence cards or permits. Ask the applicant for a share code instead." [1] The share code makes it impossible to forge. If you are an employer and only ask for copies of documents you are liable for a 40k+ fine if you end up hiring an illegal migrant. [1] https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work
celticninja 1y ago
Id cards are not unpopular with the general public. That's just what the daily mail wants you to think. https://bsky.app/profile/samfr.bsky.social/post/3lzq2w3ovgk25 https://bsky.app/profile/samfr.bsky.social/post/3lzq2w3ovgk2...
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- surgical_fire 1y ago
  This is HN, it is unsurprising that you will find complaints of people who think governments are icky. You know, the usual libertarian bullshit. I lived in countries that have mandatory unique IDs, and countries that don't. Typically the countries that do not are more a pain in the ass to deal with, because institutions will proxy to the next best thing in the absense of an actual ID, typically documents that are not mandatory and not supposed to be used as ID, but end up being used like that anyway.
  - pjc50 1y ago
    There's three separate questions: - is it a good idea to tie various public records together under a unique ID - is it a good idea to issue voluntary ID for those situations where people need to prove it and the big, third one: - where is this going to be made mandatory and under what circumstances will it be used against people?
    - surgical_fire 1y ago
      > - is it a good idea to tie various public records together under a unique ID Generally, yes. It simplifies dealing with government bureaucracy. Proving your identity is generally something you will have to do anyway, this is will just remove a bunch of hoops you have to go through. > - is it a good idea to issue voluntary ID for those situations where people need to prove it One of the countries I lived in had a system similar to this one. It worked fine - typically you only needed this ID when opening a bank account or registered for work. Originally it was a tax registration ID (which is why it was related to banking and working), but it was secure enough that it was later repurposed as the actual unique ID. Nowadays I think they issue one to every registered person (e.g. newborns). > - where is this going to be made mandatory and under what circumstances will it be used against people? We are talking about the government here, who has the monopoly of force. If you live in an authoritarian country where the government fucks over citizens, they will do it to you irrespective of you having a mandatory ID or not. My actual main concern is the level of access private corporations have to the records tied to this unique ID. I am highly suspicious of corporations (e.g.: banks, healthcare providers, etc).

celticninja 1y ago

[flagged]

mytailorisrich 1y ago
> What it will combat is illegal immigrants ability to work. No. That's a rubbish claim by the government. Employers must already check right to work and it is straightforward. Penalties are unlimited fines and jail, with penalties of 40k+ dished out on the first offence.
- celticninja 1y ago
  It is easily gamed and it requires providing documents, usually these are photos or reproductions of passports which are provided digitally and can be easily altered. And employers don't have the skill or ability to detect them, or often the will to investigate.. by having copies of the documents they can show they did what was required and claim to have been misled and they are the victims, so no prosecution or fines.
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    That's not how it works and it is not easily gamed. You must provide your original passport, not a copy. And if you are a foreigner you must also provide a "share code" that allows the employer to go to the Home Office's website and check you details, including picture, and entitlement to live/work/study in the country. Again, if some employers are unscrupulous, or just plain idiots, ID cards won't change that. > by having copies of the documents they can show they did what was required and claim to have been misled and they are the victims, so no prosecution or fines. On the contrary, this means 40k fine.
- gadders 1y ago
  Most of the work done by illegal immigrants is for things like Deliveroo/Uber Eats, where an account is shared: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj615p5y5kko https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj615p5y5kko
  - pjc50 1y ago
    So they can just share a digital ID as well, right?
  - whywhywhywhy 1y ago
    Yeah they can just share the same Digital ID so the point is none of this is actually about these people, it's about something else.
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    Well, exactly. Deliveroo checks the right to work of the account owner and then that person shares it with others cash in hand. QED.
GJim 1y ago
> What it will combat is illegal immigrants ability to work Utter rubbish. Do you seriously think those already paying cash-in-hand for delivery drivers, window cleaners, fruit pickers etc will give a toss about someone's lack of an ID card?
- celticninja 1y ago
  No but it makes prosecution easier..right now you can provide a copy of a document, which can be digitally altered, but the employer can say 'i accepted it in good faith' and they have done their due diligence. Having scanned a digital ID and for example that does not match the worker you have employed makes it harder to claim you did due diligence
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    No, you can't provide just a copy of of a document. This is not a valid check and only providing only a document without share code only works if you are citizen. "Ask to see the applicant’s original documents. You can no longer accept biometric residence cards or permits. Ask the applicant for a share code instead." [1] The share code makes it impossible to forge. If you are an employer and only ask for copies of documents you are liable for a 40k+ fine if you end up hiring an illegal migrant. [1] https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work

celticninja 1y ago

Id cards are not unpopular with the general public. That's just what the daily mail wants you to think. https://bsky.app/profile/samfr.bsky.social/post/3lzq2w3ovgk25 https://bsky.app/profile/samfr.bsky.social/post/3lzq2w3ovgk2...

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
surgical_fire 1y ago
This is HN, it is unsurprising that you will find complaints of people who think governments are icky. You know, the usual libertarian bullshit. I lived in countries that have mandatory unique IDs, and countries that don't. Typically the countries that do not are more a pain in the ass to deal with, because institutions will proxy to the next best thing in the absense of an actual ID, typically documents that are not mandatory and not supposed to be used as ID, but end up being used like that anyway.
- pjc50 1y ago
  There's three separate questions: - is it a good idea to tie various public records together under a unique ID - is it a good idea to issue voluntary ID for those situations where people need to prove it and the big, third one: - where is this going to be made mandatory and under what circumstances will it be used against people?
  - surgical_fire 1y ago
    > - is it a good idea to tie various public records together under a unique ID Generally, yes. It simplifies dealing with government bureaucracy. Proving your identity is generally something you will have to do anyway, this is will just remove a bunch of hoops you have to go through. > - is it a good idea to issue voluntary ID for those situations where people need to prove it One of the countries I lived in had a system similar to this one. It worked fine - typically you only needed this ID when opening a bank account or registered for work. Originally it was a tax registration ID (which is why it was related to banking and working), but it was secure enough that it was later repurposed as the actual unique ID. Nowadays I think they issue one to every registered person (e.g. newborns). > - where is this going to be made mandatory and under what circumstances will it be used against people? We are talking about the government here, who has the monopoly of force. If you live in an authoritarian country where the government fucks over citizens, they will do it to you irrespective of you having a mandatory ID or not. My actual main concern is the level of access private corporations have to the records tied to this unique ID. I am highly suspicious of corporations (e.g.: banks, healthcare providers, etc).