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If you want to include the efficiency of the entire electrical pipeline, then you need to do the same for the gasoline/diesel engine. How much energy is used f

by jsight 14y ago

If you want to include the efficiency of the entire electrical pipeline, then you need to do the same for the gasoline/diesel engine. How much energy is used for the extraction, refinery, transport, and distribution of gasoline/diesel fuel? I suspect 26% efficiency for gasoline would also be extremely high compared to reality if those costs were factored in.

Retric 14y ago
Last time I checked on average when you include extraction, refining, and transportation a higher % of coals energy ends up in the battery's than does Oil's in the gas tank. Initially, oil took little energy to refine etc, but we have started doing things like tar sands and cracking which take a lot more energy than earlier methods. While there is still some easy oil out there, Oil is worth 10x as much as coal vary energy expensive Oil starts to be worth extracting. PS: If you compare solar cells with Bio fuels it's vary one sided with electric cars far out in the lead.
binarymax 14y ago
Splitting hairs now, but coal for the grid also has extraction and delivery costs - probably not equal to that of oil, but if you start from the earth for one you need to start from the earth for the other.
Zak 14y ago
I'm talking about the efficiency of the pipeline starting with a fossil fuel and ending with a car moving down the road. It's also fair to start the comparison with a fossil fuel in the ground, but in that case you also have to start the electric pipeline at a coal mine. Electric might well win by a significant margin, but it isn't nearly the 85% to 20% claimed.
- jsight 14y ago
  Well, your car comparison started at electricity production. At the very least, your gasoline example should start at the refinery. Does anyone know the efficiency of the average refinery? Or distribution costs? My suspicion is that they are actually just as bad as the overhead of burning coal.
  - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
    I'm not sure what the 'efficiency' of a refinery is. In terms of energy consumed per energy produced? How about equipment/installation costs, costs to the environment, man-hours etc. All different units, hard to avoid apples/oranges issues.

by jsight 14y ago

Retric 14y ago

Last time I checked on average when you include extraction, refining, and transportation a higher % of coals energy ends up in the battery's than does Oil's in the gas tank. Initially, oil took little energy to refine etc, but we have started doing things like tar sands and cracking which take a lot more energy than earlier methods. While there is still some easy oil out there, Oil is worth 10x as much as coal vary energy expensive Oil starts to be worth extracting. PS: If you compare solar cells with Bio fuels it's vary one sided with electric cars far out in the lead.

binarymax 14y ago

Splitting hairs now, but coal for the grid also has extraction and delivery costs - probably not equal to that of oil, but if you start from the earth for one you need to start from the earth for the other.

Zak 14y ago

I'm talking about the efficiency of the pipeline starting with a fossil fuel and ending with a car moving down the road. It's also fair to start the comparison with a fossil fuel in the ground, but in that case you also have to start the electric pipeline at a coal mine. Electric might well win by a significant margin, but it isn't nearly the 85% to 20% claimed.

jsight 14y ago
Well, your car comparison started at electricity production. At the very least, your gasoline example should start at the refinery. Does anyone know the efficiency of the average refinery? Or distribution costs? My suspicion is that they are actually just as bad as the overhead of burning coal.
- JoeAltmaier 14y ago
  I'm not sure what the 'efficiency' of a refinery is. In terms of energy consumed per energy produced? How about equipment/installation costs, costs to the environment, man-hours etc. All different units, hard to avoid apples/oranges issues.