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The "Wage Level" Mirage: H-1B proposal could help outsourcers and hurt US talent
- DaveZale 1y agoGood points, but maybe international outsourcing is the way to go in some areas. This is how it was sold "a few years ago" in some circles. Specifically, one argument ran that you could have people working around the clock globally, while respecting their own local circadian rhythms. Seemed great in theory.
- lazyasciiart 1y agoIt’s great in theory but it leads to maddening conversations where you get one half-useful sentence response every 24 hours.
- bayarearefugee 1y ago> but maybe international outsourcing is the way to go in some areas Seems like a lot of people forget there was a fairly massive push for this back in the early to mid aughts (for example, google "tech outsourcing 2004", as iirc 2004 was around the peak of the mania) and it generally didn't work out so great, with most companies who tried it pulling back away from it a year or two later. Maybe it'll work better now, but I haven't seen evidence that much has changed that would modify the outcomes.
- ronsor 1y agoI feel like a big concern could be resolved by creating a new type of visa for students who studied in the US and now want to work there, rather than a general foreign professional visa.
- OptionOfT 1y agoBut for students there is the O-1 visa?
- jpalawaga 1y agoway too hard to get. see here: https://www.reddit.com/r/USCIS/comments/13uk5yb/o1_visa_petition_not_enough_citations_phd_holder/ https://www.reddit.com/r/USCIS/comments/13uk5yb/o1_visa_peti... studying here is no guarantee you'll get to stay, even if you did a phd.
- jacobgkau 1y agoThat anecdote is a sample size of 1, and the OP of that thread did end up getting the visa, despite their company's partner's lawyers' "belief" that their application would be "on the weaker side."
- toxicdevil 1y agoStudents have access to OPT (1y) and STEM OPT (2y) on the same visa to work after their degree. If they go for a higher degree then they can get OPT again. Grad students from US universities also get a separate quota in the H1B cap. All of this should to a little extent alleviate some of the concerns. The weighted system should still work since the candidate pool (from within the US) is likely mostly students on OPT. They should have comparable salaries, unless they are hired by rotten companies.
- pessimizer 1y agoWhy should they be favored?
- zbentley 1y agoTheir qualifications for certain roles are easier to vouch for if they have studied at accredited US schools. That’s not to say that all US schools are good or equal, just that the credential is easier to validate.
- bdcravens 1y agoThere has been a lot of criticism about US universities training future competitors to the US economy. Also there's presumably value in someone receiving their training at a US educational institution, derived from US values and US capitalism, versus a foreign institution.
- franktankbank 1y agoWay too many crap colleges out there.
- thatfrenchguy 1y agoBut then you’re accentuating the master mill problem and loosing on a ton of talent who does not have the money to pay for a degree in the US.
- guywithahat 1y agoIs this a thing we want though? The point of studying in the US is for a US education, not to get a job here. There does seem to be a sentiment that once you've studied here you deserve a job in the US, and I'm not sure that's the correct way of looking at things. Students have the fewest skills, if we are to have a work visa program it should be targeted at high skilled laborers, who have worked in industry for enough time to pick up desirable skills
- gubbler 1y ago[dead]
- stricdder 1y ago[flagged]
- femiagbabiaka 1y ago[flagged]
- stricdder 1y ago[flagged]
- temptemptemp111 1y ago[dead]
- glimshe 1y agoDamned if you do, damned if you don't. I've heard people here asking for curbs on H1Bs for years because of not only abuses, but also engineers who come with a ton of experience as entry-level hires. I know this very well, I was one of these engineers. I was a senior software developer from overseas hired on H1B at the same level/pay of US college hires. I'm a citizen now. Now that Trump is trying to do something about it, I start seeing a flood of negative posts. We need to decide what we want.
- andrewflnr 1y agoWhat part of this being a bad execution of the idea is confusing or contradictory? What "we want" is for the governance of our country, including but not limited to H1B reform, to not be a shambolic disaster. I was prepared to accept this as one of the handful of semi-useful things Trump did, and I might still personally benefit, but the details quickly disabused me of the idea that it was actually good.
- Terr_ 1y ago> What part of this being a bad execution of the idea is confusing or contradictory? And even then, "bad idea" is what you get after the extreme charity of assuming the Trump administration is fundamentally lawful. It's even worse if you believe they're bunch of crooks that will use the "special exception" clause to extort/bribe companies into corrupt favors. For example, granting access to snoop without a court-order, biasing their moderation policies, silencing voices or messages the administration finds inconvenient, etc.
- andrewflnr 1y agoI suspect that this actually is something they think is a "good idea", for their particular idea of "good". It'll get used for "deals" like everything else, but they don't need to introduce new pretexts just for that. ("They" being the Trump admin in general, since I'm not at all sure who in that morass is actually in charge.)
- EasyMark 1y ago
- Our_Benefactors 1y agoThe ol “I’m rubber you’re glue” argument. By the way, this is total bullshit pushed by people who are upset that the loss of H1B labor will mean that they have to pay labor more. If the offshoring was a comparable product and cheaper, they would have already done it. But guess what - everyone already knows outsourcing leads to a lower quality product!
- bdangubic 1y agoThere are multi-multi-multi billion dollar companies that no longer have SWEs in the US outside of gigs requiring clearance. you should chatgpt-that-shit and check how many off-shore employees are actually current employed by US companies and then see whether it “leads to lower quality”
- kentm 1y agoWhich ones specifically?
- bdangubic 1y agoCGI - https://www.cgi.com/us/en-us https://www.cgi.com/us/en-us
- Our_Benefactors 1y agoI’ve had the displeasure of interacting with CGI systems and can confidently say they are low quality.
- Our_Benefactors 1y agoYes, it’s well known that Indians like to hire only more Indians.
- aesthethiccs 1y agoplease stop noticing patterns of hiring discrimination by one group.
- Ericson2314 1y agoIs the theoretical most efficient and foolproof wage-based merit immigration system just...auctioning off visas? Fine with me, if so!
- groceryheist 1y agoOnly if visas can only be paid through earned income or returns on investments made with such. Otherwise you're mixing people who bring value by contributing labor with people who contribute capital. Both can be nice, but should we treat them the same or independently?
- zbentley 1y ago> paid through earned income You’re describing a tax on visa holders. That’s an interesting idea; I can think of some benefits and some scary drawbacks/abuses/perverse incentives to doing this as well. Has that been tried anywhere?
- groceryheist 1y agoI dunno, I'm not a policymaker. What drawbacks do you see?
- Ericson2314 1y agoAlready rich people are fairly few in number, I don't really see the problem. If you want to scare them off, have some wealth taxes :D
- d_sem 1y agoOne of America's greatest assets is its brand as a place worth immigrating too. Much of the social capital is gained by high performing international hires who leverage the H-1B visa. We want methods for highly educated people to make the US their home. limiting this is short sighted and negatively impact the health of the country.
- colechristensen 1y agoWe shouldn't be arguing yes or no, but instead "how much". Charging a yearly fee to offset how H1-B is abused for cheap labor instead of high performers makes sense. Making that fee $100,000 with arbitrary waivers for friends of the administration is absurd.
- amluto 1y agoOr maybe… make H-1B labor not be cheap. Give H-1B visa holders the same ability to change jobs and negotiate wages effectively that citizens and permanent residents have and give some teeth to the rules that sponsors may not underlay them.
- Detrytus 1y agoThe problem is: if you do that, then you need to create a big government agency that will interview the potential candidates, evaluating their value on the job market, in order to grant them a visa. Right now that job is done by their sponsoring employer, but if you give people ability to change jobs freely then employers lose any incentive to do so.
- groceryheist 1y agoYou can still require people to sustain employment in their field. Maybe companies can attest that a particular role classification requires a type of high-end talent. Auditing or otherwise verifying the attestation addresses the current allegations that H1-Bs are given for some jobs not requiring high-end talent.
- temptemptemp111 1y ago[dead]
- cuttothechase 1y ago100K one time fee will be easily amortized as a pay reduction over a period of 6 years by the H1B abusing companies. That is equivalent to getting 5 years worth of salary when you work 6, assuming a median suppressed wage of 100K. This does not seem much of a deterrent for any of these involved. This could actually result in wage suppression for the victim and nothing else in the long run. Seems to be poorly thoughout?
- AngryData 1y agoWell it does put a bit more power into the employee's hand so im not sure it is all a bad tradeoff. Usually the company is holding all the cards, but if they just ate $100,000 that they will never get back then their threat of firing someone 3 months in if they don't lick enough boot polish is going to hurt the company too.
- EasyMark 1y agoor fire someone who makes $100k and make the h1b person work 16 hours a day instead of 8, is probably what the company is thinking, because all they see are statistics and mechanics.
- zaptheimpaler 1y agoIt’s a one time fee for the whole of the H-1B visa, so only the first employer who sponsors the visa would pay it. So they have to ensure the candidate stays with them for a whole 6 years for that amortization. I do think well see more attempts to make H-1Bs stick with their sponsor, but depending on state laws that might be difficult to enforce.
- cuttothechase 1y agoYes, but usually companies exploit loop holes and build exploitative contracts like you need to pay back the cost that we paid for getting you moved, handled and what not etc., and use it as a threat in case the candidate had the thoughts of leaving before the first year...(anything but the h1b fee, since law explicitly prohibits h1b paybacks). Agree it is going to be a state specific variation of the theme.,
- wewewedxfgdf 1y agoWhen a "Think Tank" has an opinion, you can usually trace through the money who's political interests they are indirectly pushing. And if it's not clear then its hidden. And if their opinion seems counter intuitive then it probably doesn't make sense, but they sure would like you to think this way please cause that's what the funders want.
- FilosofumRex 1y ago[flagged]
- rramadass 1y agoPrevious Discussion The H-1B Visa Program and Its Impact on the U.S. Economy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45309740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45309740
- themafia 1y ago> Second, explicitly prioritizing Wage Levels will encourage employers to find ways to game them. Which would be a bigger concern to me if I didn't suspect them of doing this already. Wages do not seem to be keeping pace with inflation and US talent is already massively impacted by the level of industry monopolization in well paying sectors. This administration does not care. It is obviously for sale. I think we're just re-arranging the deck chairs at this point.
- liquid_thyme 1y agoTake a look how many brown people have left their country of origin and are doing science in the US, writing code for big tech, and contributing to the economy. It doesn't mean that the entire worlds population should be encouraged to move to the US. And maybe the right answer for us is to slow down immigration, but fuck... how about just a thank you for all the people who are working hard out here? I don't think these people deserve to be demonized as much as they have been by this administration.
- dr_dshiv 1y agoHow does work ethic compare between H1B and American hires? Even with language and culture issues?
- devoutsalsa 1y agoI'm not an H1-B, but I am on a skilled migrant visa in a different country. While I'm not constantly thinking about it, I'm keenly aware that my immigration status is directly tied to my job. No job, no residence permit. So at a minimum I would say I have an incentive to not get fired, and the best way to not get fired is to be someone worth retaining.
- fred_is_fred 1y agoMost Americans are motivated to not get fired also as that means you lose your health insurance, group life policy, and ability to pay your mortgage or rent.
- rexpop 1y agoBoth are violent, but one is an order of magnitude more violent.
- bryceneal 1y agoIn my experience H1-Bs know that the consequence of losing their job could mean being forced to leave the country. Management knows that too. Obviously this affects the incentives and behavior of both the manager and the employee.
- rexpop 1y agoUltimately, the goal of using a labor force with restricted mobility (like H-1B visa holders) is to contain labor militancy and suppress wages. I've found "civic ethic" among these workers to be deplorably low—as evidenced by expressions of racism, classism, and political nihilism.
- nickdothutton 1y agoThis was all litigated (at least behind closed doors) in the administrations of the 90s [1]. [1]https://users.nber.org/~sewp/references/archive/weinsteinhowandwhygovernment.pdf https://users.nber.org/~sewp/references/archive/weinsteinhow...
- kirito1337 1y agoI've planned from a few months ago to not start my coding career in the US.
- jalapenos 1y agoSo where will you start it?
- kirito1337 1y agoJapan.
- gadders 1y agoSomebody has put together a list of H1B jobs that have been advertised to confirm that a US-person couldn't do the role. Some of the roles look legit, some look entry level and require you to physically post your CV to apply. You can see the list here: https://www.jobs.now/ https://www.jobs.now/
- peteybeachsand 1y agowatch the aquarium until the best bubble up then pluck them off the top, allow 5 family members full citizenship utter domination
- duxup 1y agoI'm not even sure if anything will happen. New rules allow for feds to wave the fee. Just seems like corruption ...