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The criticism here is a bit overblown. What happened is: on recent iOS versions, when you tap a video in Safari to show the controls it slightly dims the video

by kemayo 1y ago

The criticism here is a bit overblown. What happened is: on recent iOS versions, when you tap a video in Safari to show the controls it slightly dims the video until the controls hide. In the latest macOS release, macOS Safari has adopted this behavior. The argument apparently being that any change at all, if it was first made on iOS, must inherently be a sign that the two platforms are merging. Now, I don't really have an opinion about this behavior (I imagine it makes it easier for the controls to always be legible, regardless of what the video content looks like?), but I'd assume that any logic that holds for it being a good idea when applied on iOS would apply just as well on macOS. It doesn't have to be a sign that they're merging, just that similar reasons to make a change can exist in both places. As such it seems like a particularly strange adjustment to hang a "macOS is turning into iOS" rant on. Particularly when there's things like "iPadOS just got macOS-style windowing and menu bars!" sitting right there.

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lapcat 1y ago
> The argument apparently being that any change at all, if it was first made on iOS, must inherently be a sign that the two platforms are merging You know, it's frustrating when people just flippantly assume that someone who has been a professional Mac developer for 19 years could be so stupid. I'm not stupid. Did you notice when I said in the blog post, "as we've seen repeatedly [emphasis added] since then" and "Apple is continuing [emphasis added] to merge iOS and macOS"? Also when I said, referring to the embedded video, "This rhetorical question was presumably in response to widespread criticism." So the impression that Apple was merging iOS and macOS was already out there years ago. My criticism should be understood in the context, which is that Apple has been merging iOS and macOS for years, in many different ways, and this is just the latest example. I couldn't even enumerate all of the examples, because there have been so many. So no, the argument does not hang on this one example. It's an argument I've been making since at least Mac OS X Lion, 14 years ago. I don't expect you to know my full history. However, I expect comments to follow the HN guidelines, which say "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." > I'd assume that any logic that holds for it being a good idea when applied on iOS would apply just as well on macOS. Why would you assume this? The two platforms are very different in physical characteristics. This is a principal objection to merging the platforms, especially merging the user interfaces. What makes sense for a tiny touch screen doesn't necessarily make sense for a much larger screen with keyboard and mouse input.
- kemayo 1y ago
  If you want to talk about steelmanning arguments, have you considered that I might also be unconvinced by prior examples? And thus dismissed those off-hand references as largely irrelevant to the main content of your post? Jeff, they're a pair of closely-related operating systems that share a lot of common subsystems, and always have been. I don't want to say they'll never unify them more closely, but that's not something they seem to me to be doing. If you've been saying they've been merging them for 14 years, then they're really not making much progress on that. > Why would you assume this? The two platforms are very different in physical characteristics. Are you saying that the make-controls-more-visible argument doesn't apply? Because although I just threw that one out there without much thought, it really does seem reasonable on any device to me.
  - lapcat 1y ago
    > have you considered that I might also be unconvinced by prior examples Yes. But then you're admitting that there are prior examples, not just this latest example. > And thus dismissed those off-hand references as largely irrelevant to the main content of your post? My opinions in the post, whether you agree with them or not, were indeed largely irrelevant to main content, which was highlighting the change of behavior. You could have chosen to ignore those opinions, if you believe they were largely irrelevant. You chose not only to address my opinions but to turn them into a straw man. (Note that the HN guidelines also say, "Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article or post to complain about in the thread. Find something interesting to respond to instead.") You don't have to agree with my opinions, but again, my opinions are part of a larger context, which you now acknoweldge. My opinions did not arise out of the blue with the video controls change.
    - kemayo 1y ago
      > Yes. But then you're admitting that there are prior examples, not just this latest example. ...I'm admitting that people making this argument have suggested there were things that supported it before. Acknowledging that people have made prior claims I disagree with doesn't seem relevant? > You could have chosen to ignore those opinions, if you believe they were largely irrelevant. It was your opening paragraph that talked about merging the OSes. There's a reason I responded to it by assuming you thought the rest of your post supported your opening statement. If you'd like, we really could just talk about whether the change to the video player behavior is a reasonable thing to apply to both platforms. I think it probably is, on balance, for the aforementioned control-visibility reasons. You? (Though, sadly, I have to go pick up a child from school, so the rapid back-and-forth will have to cease for a bit.)
aakkaakk 1y ago
As long as apple doesn’t do a ”Sinofsky”, and implement a touch optimised gui… on servers, I think we’re good.
- GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
  "now `finger` is as lickable [0] as OS X's window buttons" [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/lickable-buttons/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/lickable-buttons/ ... i'll just show myself out

by kemayo 1y ago

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lapcat 1y ago

> The argument apparently being that any change at all, if it was first made on iOS, must inherently be a sign that the two platforms are merging You know, it's frustrating when people just flippantly assume that someone who has been a professional Mac developer for 19 years could be so stupid. I'm not stupid. Did you notice when I said in the blog post, "as we've seen repeatedly [emphasis added] since then" and "Apple is continuing [emphasis added] to merge iOS and macOS"? Also when I said, referring to the embedded video, "This rhetorical question was presumably in response to widespread criticism." So the impression that Apple was merging iOS and macOS was already out there years ago. My criticism should be understood in the context, which is that Apple has been merging iOS and macOS for years, in many different ways, and this is just the latest example. I couldn't even enumerate all of the examples, because there have been so many. So no, the argument does not hang on this one example. It's an argument I've been making since at least Mac OS X Lion, 14 years ago. I don't expect you to know my full history. However, I expect comments to follow the HN guidelines, which say "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." > I'd assume that any logic that holds for it being a good idea when applied on iOS would apply just as well on macOS. Why would you assume this? The two platforms are very different in physical characteristics. This is a principal objection to merging the platforms, especially merging the user interfaces. What makes sense for a tiny touch screen doesn't necessarily make sense for a much larger screen with keyboard and mouse input.

kemayo 1y ago
If you want to talk about steelmanning arguments, have you considered that I might also be unconvinced by prior examples? And thus dismissed those off-hand references as largely irrelevant to the main content of your post? Jeff, they're a pair of closely-related operating systems that share a lot of common subsystems, and always have been. I don't want to say they'll never unify them more closely, but that's not something they seem to me to be doing. If you've been saying they've been merging them for 14 years, then they're really not making much progress on that. > Why would you assume this? The two platforms are very different in physical characteristics. Are you saying that the make-controls-more-visible argument doesn't apply? Because although I just threw that one out there without much thought, it really does seem reasonable on any device to me.
- lapcat 1y ago
  > have you considered that I might also be unconvinced by prior examples Yes. But then you're admitting that there are prior examples, not just this latest example. > And thus dismissed those off-hand references as largely irrelevant to the main content of your post? My opinions in the post, whether you agree with them or not, were indeed largely irrelevant to main content, which was highlighting the change of behavior. You could have chosen to ignore those opinions, if you believe they were largely irrelevant. You chose not only to address my opinions but to turn them into a straw man. (Note that the HN guidelines also say, "Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article or post to complain about in the thread. Find something interesting to respond to instead.") You don't have to agree with my opinions, but again, my opinions are part of a larger context, which you now acknoweldge. My opinions did not arise out of the blue with the video controls change.
  - kemayo 1y ago
    > Yes. But then you're admitting that there are prior examples, not just this latest example. ...I'm admitting that people making this argument have suggested there were things that supported it before. Acknowledging that people have made prior claims I disagree with doesn't seem relevant? > You could have chosen to ignore those opinions, if you believe they were largely irrelevant. It was your opening paragraph that talked about merging the OSes. There's a reason I responded to it by assuming you thought the rest of your post supported your opening statement. If you'd like, we really could just talk about whether the change to the video player behavior is a reasonable thing to apply to both platforms. I think it probably is, on balance, for the aforementioned control-visibility reasons. You? (Though, sadly, I have to go pick up a child from school, so the rapid back-and-forth will have to cease for a bit.)

aakkaakk 1y ago

As long as apple doesn’t do a ”Sinofsky”, and implement a touch optimised gui… on servers, I think we’re good.

GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
"now `finger` is as lickable [0] as OS X's window buttons" [0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/lickable-buttons/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/lickable-buttons/ ... i'll just show myself out