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Another recent news about mandated app use: Ryanair now (from November) requires using their app for the boarding pass, no more printouts from the desktop. Also

Another recent news about mandated app use: Ryanair now (from November) requires using their app for the boarding pass, no more printouts from the desktop. Also, they refuse to show the QR code for the boarding pass in a mobile browser via the website, you must use their app. https://www.msn.com/en-ie/travel/news/ryanair-s-new-check-in-rules-as-physical-boarding-passes-to-be-scrapped/ar-AA1K0izL https://www.msn.com/en-ie/travel/news/ryanair-s-new-check-in...

llimos 1y ago
Big difference between a private company mandating app use, and a government
- bonoboTP 1y ago
  I disagree. It's a tandem, and corporations and the government are increasingly welded together. Also, I'm not too worried about the airport usecase as we're already being tracked and surveilled and inspected there as much as possible. But it's another step to normalize and mandate phone and app use. The puzzle pieces are falling in place. Soon, AI could screen-capture your phone screen to detect suspicious activity, and track every tap you do, also taking pictures with the front-facing camera without you knowing, listening on the mic, etc. etc., connecting it all to your real identity. Because why not? If it's done step by step, nobody will care at all. Maybe that sounds pessimistic, but it looks like the end game and I see no principled political stance against it, nor any insurmountable technical hurdles.
  - card_zero 1y ago
    > increasingly welded together That's an insinuation with some vague truth to it, but not much. Budget airlines are not government departments, and competition between them isn't phony. "The sky is blue" "I feel that it is increasingly yellow"
    - bonoboTP 1y ago
      There's little competition pressure because consumers don't care. I guess the standard theory says that the buck ends there. If people are fine with it, it's fine.
      - card_zero 1y ago
        Now you're talking! People suck, it's their fault.
        bonoboTP 1y ago
        We'd do well with taking an honest stock of what allowed the formation of democracies and civil liberties, because likely it wasn't that average people longed for it so much that it happened. It's out of my weight class to pitch a grand narrative for this, but we've seen many forms of societies and governances and the current one (or from 20 years ago) won't be the last.
        johnnyanmac 1y ago
        There have been very few policies truly passed because "everyone wanted it". It always starts with some "radical" minority bringing the idea to light and then campaigning for it. Even if the thing is obvious. The former happening would make so many things easier.
      - XorNot 1y ago
        You are arguing there's little competition pressure between budget airlines, a business with notoriously razor thin margins which people shop almost exclusively on price to the exclusion of all other parameters? This isn't a serious argument.
        bonoboTP 1y ago
        Only price pressure. No measurable number of consumers will choose a different airline due to their boarding pass app policy.
- horsawlarway 1y ago
  Functionally, I'm not sure I agree. Ex - we already have plenty of cases where the government outsources payment processing to 3rd parties. What happens when that private 3rd party declares it's not accepting payments through anything except a mobile app?
oblio 1y ago
What about Google Wallet? Or just a PDF from your email?
- bonoboTP 1y ago
  To me, that's getting bogged down in details. What matters is the intent and direction. Maybe you will have some workarounds for some time. But just as more and more places go cashless, it will also be paperless and mandatory app-based.
alexchamberlain 1y ago
But what if my battery runs out?
- bonoboTP 1y ago
  They are verbose and vague about it: "Some passengers may be concerned about what they can do if they lose their phone or of their devices run out of battery before the pass board the aircraft. Ryanair has said they will assist people experiencing difficulties free of charge at the gate gathering their information and flight details which will be cross-checked and validated against the flight manifest so that they can board as normal."
  - jacobgkau 1y ago
    Of course-- there will be accommodations to start out with. Then, after the new system has become "just the way things work," the accommodations will be removed for security or efficiency or some other reason. Or maybe not. I've never lost a boarding pass, but if you lose one, you can get it re-issued somewhere, right?
    - bonoboTP 1y ago
      Without endorsement of the behavior, here's a guy getting arrested for being argumentative about not having a boarding pass in the app, and being told he can't pay their 5 dollar boarding pass print fee with cash. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QwwPmHyuEA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QwwPmHyuEA Again, being argumentative like this never helps, but it will be you either go along with it, get escorted out or not fly in the first place.
      - john01dav 1y ago
        Morally, this guy did nothing wrong. These abusive practices need to be stood up to. I'd rather live in a world where this sort of vehement NO when someone with power tries to pull something unreasonable, like demanding an app or fee, is common and effective, than this world where companies and governments can just steamroll people. Ideally, other passengers would see what's going on, see the systemic problem (even if minor in this case), and also join in in the NO. Make the terminal unusable with an angry growing mass until they decide to be reasonable. The comments on that youtube video mocking the guy and not even addressing the airline's unreasonable policy are also an absurd lack of solidarity against these companies. When someone is mad they probably have a reason to be mad and we ought to listen to them and then get mad too if we agree, other than just dismissing someone for feeling an emotion, lest we'll just have more and more rights, privileges, and respect eroded. We need a culture of standing up for each other against injustice, no matter how small. I know that his behavior was not a rational pursuit, since in practice humans are too skittish about standing up for themselves and too skittish against anyone whom they see as abnormal/not complying with social norms. But, this does not change the fact that he's completely in the right. I'd love to know a more effective strategy to deal with this shit from companies, if anyone knows one. What should he do instead in this situation where it is simply too unjust to him to be acceptable to give in? Also, I'm offended at this cop for telling the guy to "be cordial". NO. The airline's behavior is not cordial! They do NOT deserve it back! Freedom of speech means freedom to get mad at someone, possibly REALLY mad, when they try to be unreasonable. Being angry is different from being violent, and the government shouldn't shield people and companies from this consequence (angry people) of their actions.
EvanAnderson 1y ago
Ticketmaster and their stupid app is another good example. As if I couldn't hate Ticketmaster any more I recently bought some tickets and learned about this idiocy.
- SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
  I throw the tickets into my (digital) wallet and then don't think about the app until the next time I need to buy tickets. But that's not helpful if you don't have a phone.
  - EvanAnderson 1y ago
    I used to print paper tickets so I could get into a show if my phone died / got broken / etc. That doesn't happen often, to be sure, but I also don't want phone bullshit to keep me out of a show that, in the case of this recent one, I have >$500 in tickets for. One less dependency is a good thing. More to the point, the app isn't for my convenience. It doesn't do anything to make my experience better.
  - smcg 1y ago
    And most wallet apps don't work if you install your own phone OS.
    - lmm 1y ago
      Most e-tickets designed for wallet apps follow a well understood standard which has multiple implementations available for different OSes, e.g. https://linuxphoneapps.org/services/pkpass/ https://linuxphoneapps.org/services/pkpass/
- 1over137 1y ago
  With Ticketmaster you can at least still show the ticket via logging into their website, no app needed.
wkat4242 1y ago
A BIG reason these companies like Ryanair want you to use their app its that it's much easier to collect data about you than through a website :(
- XorNot 1y ago
  No, it's a cost cutting measure. App-only reduces support and development costs with whoever they're outsourcing this too. There's a line item which basically said "mobile web" and they wanted it gone to save some number of dollars per year.
  - bonoboTP 1y ago
    No, sending a pdf by email is no extra cost. They already have an email output interface for tickets and recipts and confirmations. It's all about better tracking. I'm not quite sure what additional info they get exactly, but tons and tons of mobile websites (that work and don't get deleted) are close to unusable due to a barrage of popups telling you to use the app (e.g. Reddit and other socials). Also there is no indication they will stop the mobile web version. Already today the mobile web version is there but it explicitly refuses to show the boarding pass QR code: https://i.redd.it/lj3wdnfp9mq91.jpg https://i.redd.it/lj3wdnfp9mq91.jpg
    - XorNot 1y ago
      As an SRE I can assure you that "sending a PDF by email" is far from free to support, and anything email is pretty much top of the list to eliminate.
      - wkat4242 1y ago
        It doesn't need to be by email. They can simply show it in the mobile website. But they refuse to do so in order to get all that data which they can sell. In a mobile app it's way harder to run ad blockers and much easier to sneakily collect information on the user. Especially on android which is by far the biggest OS in the countries where Ryanair operates.
WaitWaitWha 1y ago
This has been the same for most low cost airlines (e.g., Frontier, Spirit). To get a boarding pass without a mobile, customer must go to the counter, pay an additional fee and get the printed version.
anonym29 1y ago
Wow, rendering their entire core business operation vulnerable to extortion from a DDoS attack that's capable of taking down a single API endpoint? Even if they have a major commercial WAF/CDN, the cost to take down Cloudflare is a lot lower than the revenue lost by an entire airline being unable to process boarding at all. Fingers crossed the Russians figure this out and help remind these businesses why lacking paper alternatives is NOT a cost-saving measure. The group that can take down that API endpoint can pretty much name their price to Ryanair and the C-suite will effectively have a fiduciary duty to shareholders to pay it if there's truly zero alternative and that starts disrupting revenue indefinitely.
CraigRood 1y ago
I'm confused by your statement as the article suggests you can get a boarding pass via email.
interloxia 1y ago
https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-confirms-wed-nov-12th-launch-for-100-digital-boarding-passes/ https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-confirms-wed-nov-...
sunshine-o 1y ago
What do you expect? Ryanair has always been an horrible corporation in the business of shipping drunk and old people for £5 with the help of public subsidies. They also largely abused their staff to enable that business model. They are like many other corporations creating more and more fragile systems and I bet one of those days something is gonna go wrong and nobody will board their plane for a day or two. Just stop feeding the beast...

llimos 1y ago

Big difference between a private company mandating app use, and a government

bonoboTP 1y ago
I disagree. It's a tandem, and corporations and the government are increasingly welded together. Also, I'm not too worried about the airport usecase as we're already being tracked and surveilled and inspected there as much as possible. But it's another step to normalize and mandate phone and app use. The puzzle pieces are falling in place. Soon, AI could screen-capture your phone screen to detect suspicious activity, and track every tap you do, also taking pictures with the front-facing camera without you knowing, listening on the mic, etc. etc., connecting it all to your real identity. Because why not? If it's done step by step, nobody will care at all. Maybe that sounds pessimistic, but it looks like the end game and I see no principled political stance against it, nor any insurmountable technical hurdles.
- card_zero 1y ago
  > increasingly welded together That's an insinuation with some vague truth to it, but not much. Budget airlines are not government departments, and competition between them isn't phony. "The sky is blue" "I feel that it is increasingly yellow"
  - bonoboTP 1y ago
    There's little competition pressure because consumers don't care. I guess the standard theory says that the buck ends there. If people are fine with it, it's fine.
    - card_zero 1y ago
      Now you're talking! People suck, it's their fault.
      - bonoboTP 1y ago
        We'd do well with taking an honest stock of what allowed the formation of democracies and civil liberties, because likely it wasn't that average people longed for it so much that it happened. It's out of my weight class to pitch a grand narrative for this, but we've seen many forms of societies and governances and the current one (or from 20 years ago) won't be the last.
      - johnnyanmac 1y ago
        There have been very few policies truly passed because "everyone wanted it". It always starts with some "radical" minority bringing the idea to light and then campaigning for it. Even if the thing is obvious. The former happening would make so many things easier.
    - XorNot 1y ago
      You are arguing there's little competition pressure between budget airlines, a business with notoriously razor thin margins which people shop almost exclusively on price to the exclusion of all other parameters? This isn't a serious argument.
      - bonoboTP 1y ago
        Only price pressure. No measurable number of consumers will choose a different airline due to their boarding pass app policy.
horsawlarway 1y ago
Functionally, I'm not sure I agree. Ex - we already have plenty of cases where the government outsources payment processing to 3rd parties. What happens when that private 3rd party declares it's not accepting payments through anything except a mobile app?

oblio 1y ago

What about Google Wallet? Or just a PDF from your email?

bonoboTP 1y ago
To me, that's getting bogged down in details. What matters is the intent and direction. Maybe you will have some workarounds for some time. But just as more and more places go cashless, it will also be paperless and mandatory app-based.

alexchamberlain 1y ago

But what if my battery runs out?

bonoboTP 1y ago
They are verbose and vague about it: "Some passengers may be concerned about what they can do if they lose their phone or of their devices run out of battery before the pass board the aircraft. Ryanair has said they will assist people experiencing difficulties free of charge at the gate gathering their information and flight details which will be cross-checked and validated against the flight manifest so that they can board as normal."
- jacobgkau 1y ago
  Of course-- there will be accommodations to start out with. Then, after the new system has become "just the way things work," the accommodations will be removed for security or efficiency or some other reason. Or maybe not. I've never lost a boarding pass, but if you lose one, you can get it re-issued somewhere, right?
  - bonoboTP 1y ago
    Without endorsement of the behavior, here's a guy getting arrested for being argumentative about not having a boarding pass in the app, and being told he can't pay their 5 dollar boarding pass print fee with cash. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QwwPmHyuEA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QwwPmHyuEA Again, being argumentative like this never helps, but it will be you either go along with it, get escorted out or not fly in the first place.
    - john01dav 1y ago
      Morally, this guy did nothing wrong. These abusive practices need to be stood up to. I'd rather live in a world where this sort of vehement NO when someone with power tries to pull something unreasonable, like demanding an app or fee, is common and effective, than this world where companies and governments can just steamroll people. Ideally, other passengers would see what's going on, see the systemic problem (even if minor in this case), and also join in in the NO. Make the terminal unusable with an angry growing mass until they decide to be reasonable. The comments on that youtube video mocking the guy and not even addressing the airline's unreasonable policy are also an absurd lack of solidarity against these companies. When someone is mad they probably have a reason to be mad and we ought to listen to them and then get mad too if we agree, other than just dismissing someone for feeling an emotion, lest we'll just have more and more rights, privileges, and respect eroded. We need a culture of standing up for each other against injustice, no matter how small. I know that his behavior was not a rational pursuit, since in practice humans are too skittish about standing up for themselves and too skittish against anyone whom they see as abnormal/not complying with social norms. But, this does not change the fact that he's completely in the right. I'd love to know a more effective strategy to deal with this shit from companies, if anyone knows one. What should he do instead in this situation where it is simply too unjust to him to be acceptable to give in? Also, I'm offended at this cop for telling the guy to "be cordial". NO. The airline's behavior is not cordial! They do NOT deserve it back! Freedom of speech means freedom to get mad at someone, possibly REALLY mad, when they try to be unreasonable. Being angry is different from being violent, and the government shouldn't shield people and companies from this consequence (angry people) of their actions.

EvanAnderson 1y ago

Ticketmaster and their stupid app is another good example. As if I couldn't hate Ticketmaster any more I recently bought some tickets and learned about this idiocy.

SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
I throw the tickets into my (digital) wallet and then don't think about the app until the next time I need to buy tickets. But that's not helpful if you don't have a phone.
- EvanAnderson 1y ago
  I used to print paper tickets so I could get into a show if my phone died / got broken / etc. That doesn't happen often, to be sure, but I also don't want phone bullshit to keep me out of a show that, in the case of this recent one, I have >$500 in tickets for. One less dependency is a good thing. More to the point, the app isn't for my convenience. It doesn't do anything to make my experience better.
- smcg 1y ago
  And most wallet apps don't work if you install your own phone OS.
  - lmm 1y ago
    Most e-tickets designed for wallet apps follow a well understood standard which has multiple implementations available for different OSes, e.g. https://linuxphoneapps.org/services/pkpass/ https://linuxphoneapps.org/services/pkpass/
1over137 1y ago
With Ticketmaster you can at least still show the ticket via logging into their website, no app needed.

wkat4242 1y ago

A BIG reason these companies like Ryanair want you to use their app its that it's much easier to collect data about you than through a website :(

XorNot 1y ago
No, it's a cost cutting measure. App-only reduces support and development costs with whoever they're outsourcing this too. There's a line item which basically said "mobile web" and they wanted it gone to save some number of dollars per year.
- bonoboTP 1y ago
  No, sending a pdf by email is no extra cost. They already have an email output interface for tickets and recipts and confirmations. It's all about better tracking. I'm not quite sure what additional info they get exactly, but tons and tons of mobile websites (that work and don't get deleted) are close to unusable due to a barrage of popups telling you to use the app (e.g. Reddit and other socials). Also there is no indication they will stop the mobile web version. Already today the mobile web version is there but it explicitly refuses to show the boarding pass QR code: https://i.redd.it/lj3wdnfp9mq91.jpg https://i.redd.it/lj3wdnfp9mq91.jpg
  - XorNot 1y ago
    As an SRE I can assure you that "sending a PDF by email" is far from free to support, and anything email is pretty much top of the list to eliminate.
    - wkat4242 1y ago
      It doesn't need to be by email. They can simply show it in the mobile website. But they refuse to do so in order to get all that data which they can sell. In a mobile app it's way harder to run ad blockers and much easier to sneakily collect information on the user. Especially on android which is by far the biggest OS in the countries where Ryanair operates.

WaitWaitWha 1y ago

This has been the same for most low cost airlines (e.g., Frontier, Spirit). To get a boarding pass without a mobile, customer must go to the counter, pay an additional fee and get the printed version.

anonym29 1y ago

Wow, rendering their entire core business operation vulnerable to extortion from a DDoS attack that's capable of taking down a single API endpoint? Even if they have a major commercial WAF/CDN, the cost to take down Cloudflare is a lot lower than the revenue lost by an entire airline being unable to process boarding at all. Fingers crossed the Russians figure this out and help remind these businesses why lacking paper alternatives is NOT a cost-saving measure. The group that can take down that API endpoint can pretty much name their price to Ryanair and the C-suite will effectively have a fiduciary duty to shareholders to pay it if there's truly zero alternative and that starts disrupting revenue indefinitely.

CraigRood 1y ago

I'm confused by your statement as the article suggests you can get a boarding pass via email.

interloxia 1y ago

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-confirms-wed-nov-12th-launch-for-100-digital-boarding-passes/ https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-confirms-wed-nov-...

sunshine-o 1y ago

What do you expect? Ryanair has always been an horrible corporation in the business of shipping drunk and old people for £5 with the help of public subsidies. They also largely abused their staff to enable that business model. They are like many other corporations creating more and more fragile systems and I bet one of those days something is gonna go wrong and nobody will board their plane for a day or two. Just stop feeding the beast...