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Firefox is in decline and Brave will soon overtake it. Brave blocks ads natively. There is a lot of advantage in that but we also may eventually have a new mode

Firefox is in decline and Brave will soon overtake it. Brave blocks ads natively. There is a lot of advantage in that but we also may eventually have a new model that funds the internet. And I don't see Firefox or Safari disrupting advertising. https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity https://brave.com/transparency/ https://brave.com/transparency/

godelski 1y ago
I think you've missed the point entirely. The point is that if everyone is using a single browser (not just Chrome/Chromium) then that actor gets disproportionate control over the internet. That's not good for anyone. The specific gripe to Chromium is that _Google_ gets that say, and I think they are less trustworthy than other actors. I'm not asking anyone to trust Mozilla, but anyone suggesting Mozilla is less trustworthy than Google probably has a bridge to sell you. Remember that being Chromium still means that Brave is reliant upon Google. That leads to things like this[0,1]. Remember, the chromium source code is quite large, which is why things like [0] aren't so easily found. I also want to quote a quote from [0.1] This is interesting because it is a clear violation of the idea that browser vendors should not give preference to their websites over anyone elses. That wouldn't be the first time people have found Google preferencing their browser and it is pretty known this happens with YouTube. Do we really want ANY company having such control over the internet? Do we really want Google to? > https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity > https://brave.com/transparency/ I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me here. That Brave has 64% of the number of users as Firefox? That Brave users really like Gemini, Coinbase, and Uphold? That Brave users are linking their Brave account to sites like Twitter, YouTube, Reddit, GitHub, Vimeo, and Twitch? That Brave Ads is tracking via the state level? Honestly I have more questions looking at the Brave "transparency" report, as it seems to have more information about users than Firefox... If you're extra concerned about privacy and that's your reason for Brave, then may I suggest the Mullvad browser[2]? It is a fork of Firefox and they work with Tor to minimize tracking and fingerprinting. You get your security, privacy, and out from under the boot of Google. [0] https://github.com/brave/brave-browser/issues/39660 https://github.com/brave/brave-browser/issues/39660 [0.1] https://simonwillison.net/2024/Jul/9/hangout_servicesthunkjs/ https://simonwillison.net/2024/Jul/9/hangout_servicesthunkjs... [1] https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/google/google-to-kill-chrome-sync-feature-in-third-party-browsers/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/google/google-to-kill-... [2] https://mullvad.net/en/browser https://mullvad.net/en/browser
- cactusplant7374 1y ago
  > I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me here. I'm telling you that Firefox is going to be out of business soon because users favor ad blocking and blocking trackers. That is the trend. Firefox isn't growing anymore. > Honestly I have more questions looking at the Brave "transparency" report, as it seems to have more information about users than Firefox... Metrics can be transmitted without revealing the user. This is well known. You can't suggest anything. I am done with this conversation.
  - godelski 1y ago
    > I'm telling you that Firefox is going to be out of business soon Do you not think everyone saying Firefox is going to be out of business soon plays a role in this? Regardless, I think you've ignored the root of my argument. I'm not trying to be a Firefox fanboy here but it's not like there's many options. The playing field is Chrome, Firefox, Safari. So only one of these is not "big tech". > Metrics can be transmitted without revealing the user. This is well known. This is not well known and I think you've kinda "told on yourself" here. It is fairly well known in the privacy community that it is difficult to transmit user data without accidentally revealing other information. Here's a rather famous example[0,1]. I'd encourage you to read it and think carefully about how deanonymization might be possible after just reading a description of the datasets they deanonymize. > You can't suggest anything. I am done with this conversation. If you wish to disengage then that is your choice. I am really trying to engage with you faithfully here. I'm not even really attacking Brave here, as my critique is over the Chromium ecosystem. I think if you look at my points again you can see how they would dramatically shift if Brave were based off of Gecko or Webkit. Honestly, I would be encouraging Brave usage were it under those umbrella. Or even better, if it had its own engine! Because my point is about monopolization. [0] https://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.857/2018/project/Archie-Gershon-Katchoff-Zeng-Netflix.pdf https://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.857/2018/project/Archie-Gers... [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0610105 https://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0610105
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
bl4kers 1y ago
That Brave link shows growth has flatlined
- cactusplant7374 1y ago
  The line isn't of MAU growth.
jazzyjackson 1y ago
I'll just throw out there that zen-browser.app is a gentle fork of Firefox to make it look like the (abandoned, chromium) arc browser, it's great.

godelski 1y ago

I think you've missed the point entirely. The point is that if everyone is using a single browser (not just Chrome/Chromium) then that actor gets disproportionate control over the internet. That's not good for anyone. The specific gripe to Chromium is that _Google_ gets that say, and I think they are less trustworthy than other actors. I'm not asking anyone to trust Mozilla, but anyone suggesting Mozilla is less trustworthy than Google probably has a bridge to sell you. Remember that being Chromium still means that Brave is reliant upon Google. That leads to things like this[0,1]. Remember, the chromium source code is quite large, which is why things like [0] aren't so easily found. I also want to quote a quote from [0.1] This is interesting because it is a clear violation of the idea that browser vendors should not give preference to their websites over anyone elses. That wouldn't be the first time people have found Google preferencing their browser and it is pretty known this happens with YouTube. Do we really want ANY company having such control over the internet? Do we really want Google to? > https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/user-activity > https://brave.com/transparency/ I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me here. That Brave has 64% of the number of users as Firefox? That Brave users really like Gemini, Coinbase, and Uphold? That Brave users are linking their Brave account to sites like Twitter, YouTube, Reddit, GitHub, Vimeo, and Twitch? That Brave Ads is tracking via the state level? Honestly I have more questions looking at the Brave "transparency" report, as it seems to have more information about users than Firefox... If you're extra concerned about privacy and that's your reason for Brave, then may I suggest the Mullvad browser[2]? It is a fork of Firefox and they work with Tor to minimize tracking and fingerprinting. You get your security, privacy, and out from under the boot of Google. [0] https://github.com/brave/brave-browser/issues/39660 https://github.com/brave/brave-browser/issues/39660 [0.1] https://simonwillison.net/2024/Jul/9/hangout_servicesthunkjs/ https://simonwillison.net/2024/Jul/9/hangout_servicesthunkjs... [1] https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/google/google-to-kill-chrome-sync-feature-in-third-party-browsers/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/google/google-to-kill-... [2] https://mullvad.net/en/browser https://mullvad.net/en/browser

cactusplant7374 1y ago
> I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me here. I'm telling you that Firefox is going to be out of business soon because users favor ad blocking and blocking trackers. That is the trend. Firefox isn't growing anymore. > Honestly I have more questions looking at the Brave "transparency" report, as it seems to have more information about users than Firefox... Metrics can be transmitted without revealing the user. This is well known. You can't suggest anything. I am done with this conversation.
- godelski 1y ago
  > I'm telling you that Firefox is going to be out of business soon Do you not think everyone saying Firefox is going to be out of business soon plays a role in this? Regardless, I think you've ignored the root of my argument. I'm not trying to be a Firefox fanboy here but it's not like there's many options. The playing field is Chrome, Firefox, Safari. So only one of these is not "big tech". > Metrics can be transmitted without revealing the user. This is well known. This is not well known and I think you've kinda "told on yourself" here. It is fairly well known in the privacy community that it is difficult to transmit user data without accidentally revealing other information. Here's a rather famous example[0,1]. I'd encourage you to read it and think carefully about how deanonymization might be possible after just reading a description of the datasets they deanonymize. > You can't suggest anything. I am done with this conversation. If you wish to disengage then that is your choice. I am really trying to engage with you faithfully here. I'm not even really attacking Brave here, as my critique is over the Chromium ecosystem. I think if you look at my points again you can see how they would dramatically shift if Brave were based off of Gecko or Webkit. Honestly, I would be encouraging Brave usage were it under those umbrella. Or even better, if it had its own engine! Because my point is about monopolization. [0] https://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.857/2018/project/Archie-Gershon-Katchoff-Zeng-Netflix.pdf https://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.857/2018/project/Archie-Gers... [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0610105 https://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0610105
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]

bl4kers 1y ago

That Brave link shows growth has flatlined

cactusplant7374 1y ago
The line isn't of MAU growth.

jazzyjackson 1y ago

I'll just throw out there that zen-browser.app is a gentle fork of Firefox to make it look like the (abandoned, chromium) arc browser, it's great.